Mind Body Syndrome (any Thoughts?)

[Catelynnw3]

Well, in a nutshell, I have had debilitating symptoms for about 14 years now and have been diagnosed/misdiagnosed several times trying to figure out why I feel so lousy. At one point, I was diagnosed with P.O.T.S. and tried the medications but they didn't help. I also never totally felt that it was 100% accurate although I have a lot of the symptoms. Anyway, last year I heard about a syndrome that can occur as the result of the ligaments in the neck becoming overstretched often due to a whiplash injury which can then cause symptoms due to cervical spine instability. I remembered that I was in a serious car accident 14 years ago not too long before the onset of my symptoms, so I went for x-rays and mris of my cervical spine. The tests confirmed that I had bone spur complexes, stenosis, herniations, and cord indentation. The neurologist and neurosurgeon felt that my symptoms are the result of the blockage of cerebrospinal fluid due to these issues.

Okay, so now to my topic. After telling my father-in-law what they said, he told me I should read a book by a Dr. Sarno that deals with the mind-body connection in a lot of "illnesses". One of the "illnesses" the author mentions is back and neck problems, and another is P.O.T.S. What he and some other doctors have to say is quite interesting and thought provoking although I admit that I was quite angry to hear that anyone would even suggest that my symptoms are psychosomatic. Anyway, I didn't buy the book, but rather read a lot of information on the internet about these theories. One website I came across was www.yourpainisreal.com. Anyway, the basic premise is that underlying subconscious issues that we aren't even aware of can trigger the body to respond with real pain (partially due to the brain restricting oxygen to certain areas of the body) and autonomic responses. (for a better definition and more information, please look into this on the internet) I figured, "What do I have to lose by at least exploring this?" After reading about it, I am skeptical. I wonder if anyone else has any input on this subject. My thoughts on it are that real physical issues in the body (whether they are seen on x-rays or mris or seen by our eyes or something unseen in the body isn't functioning or flowing exactly right) can trigger an autonomic response by the body in reaction.

The reason I feel the way I do is because although I do admit that some of my symptoms are definitely autonomic in nature, such as palpitations and shortness of breath, I have tried to analyze this for so long to figure out which came first. I have experienced times when I am lying in bed sound asleep and in a half-asleep state of mind turn my head or roll over and all of a sudden I feel increased pressure in my head and discomfort in my neck (two of my symptoms). I feel this is the result of the neck issues. Anyway, within about a minute or two THEN my heart starts pounding and I feel the autonomic response. I don't think I can believe that in this state of total relaxation being half-asleep that subconscious issues are what is triggering the autonomic reaction. I somehow feel that the body overreacts to the problem or discomfort or disruption in csf flow - something along those lines. Well, sorry this is so long, I tried to get to the point, but I guess I am wondering if anyone else has any input on this subject.

[mkoven]

I read some of Sarno's stuff several years ago. I'm all for mind-body integration, but I think he swings too far-- that mind controls body. If only it were so simple! I frankly am not a fan. That is not to say that one's state of mind can't play a role in making things feel or even be better or worse, but I don't buy the psychological causation.

I get just as irritated with people who claim that sick people (anyone from us to cancer) should get better through psychological healing.

Here's something interesting on a related note. I tried biofeedback for migraines, but the doc thought it might help my ans stuff as well. But, because my ans is so messed up, it made things worse! I have such a vagal response to slow deep breathing, that I end up wanting to faint! Followed by an adrenaline surge. So I'd be going along, slowing my breathing, slowing my heart rate, and then it would drop too much, and I'd feel awful. He "accused" me of having an anxiety attack, and my response was, "I'm not anxious, I just am fighting fainting!"

[dsdmom]

I read Sarno's stuff too - really wanted it to be true because I figured that meant that I could fix it! Well, it's been 2 years and I've been in intense therapy (was going before I read the Sarno stuff) and unfortunately I'm not all better. I don't buy it for our issues.

[MightyMouse]

If it were that simple I'd be able to think positively enough that my genes would revert to a state that is undamaged... sorry, but he really, IMHO, goes way too far with his theory. In some people, perhaps, with more sudden or late life onset, maybe it's some bigger component of psychological control, but I think also that it's a very slippery slope to fall down to the level of "blame that patient" if they do not fully recover. Just my thoughts; I understand many will disagree. This has been a hot topic here many times.

Nina

[Ernie]

Hi,

[ana_22]

Ernie- out of curiosity what kind of disorders and what were the symptoms?

[Ernie]

Hi

[mjan]

Well this topic usually brings on a lot of discussion. And the very word PSYCHO-SOMATIC is usually construed as all in our heads talk. Its not that we are FAKING it.. or psycho. It means the BODY creates physical symptoms (somatic) by our thought patterns. or traumas (our PSYCHE)

So.. maybe we ARE what we think!! Our thoughts..beliefs..anguish..anything negative can ALTER our chemistry down to the cellular level. Its unconscious so NOT our faults as we are not aware. Month after month.. year after year of this negative unconscious thought pattern culmatively creates DIS-EASE.. or DIS-ORDER

Next.. bad experiences.. or trauma..including bad chemicals we eat.. drink..or breathe.. adds to the genetic predisposition.. that long enough.. bad enough ...leads to diseases...including mental diseases.

So in other words.. unconsciously our thoughts create balance or imbalance.

NOW for healing it can work as well. THINK POSITIVELY.. with a good attitude..many can improve if not get well. But I contend it depends on how long we've had dis-ease symptoms. Improvement with any symptoms would be welcomed.. wouldn't it?

So.. yes our minds are VERY POWERFUL.. and can change the negative to the positive.Does not mean its a CURE..but we never really know till we try. But in my case.. I am sooo OLD..and have had DIS-EASE for so long.. I am hoping to learn from these experiences..and improve.. the BEST I can. Ok.. just my point of view.

Jan

[Sophia3]

I am confused to this post as I thought most of us are INSULTED that psychosomatic is thrown around so much to many patients here.

So people are saying some PSYCHO illnesses do cause physical illness..there fore we just change OUR THOUGHTS and the ANS problems go away?

Not sure where this thread is going.

I thought we all knew we are REALLY sick and it's "just not in our minds".

Caps are for emphasis, not shouting.

[Poohbear]

But when someone has a genetic disorder it is much more difficult to help because there is little psychosomatic reason if none that make the person sick.

If you agree with the theories of psychosomatic causes then genetic disorders aren't excluded from that category. It has been shown in science that genetic disorder does not necessarily mean a person was BORN with a genetic defect. They may have been but there are also other things that cause genetic defects---viruses, trauma, stress etc. So to that degree...a genetic disorder could still fall under psychosomatic.

In the end it doesn't really matter---people are dealing with what IS. I think we owe it to ourselves to try whatever we can at our disposal to get better and hope that it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't mean we are to blame or to judge others about it.

Catelynnw3, I think you know your body best. There is definite connection between mind/body. I don't think anyone can deny that. It sounds like you have already figured out that your body is responding to something physical and then responds with an exaggerated response to a normal stimuli. The root cause may be different from someone else who may have anxious thoughts first and then a physical response. In the end....the root cause may be different but the treatment (to some degree) or what controls symptoms may be similar or even the same in some cases.

[ana_22]

Ernie your work sounds so very interesting

Erine (out of curiosity again!) just a few questions?

How severe were the physical disorders that you have seen that have been 'fixed' by therapy? what kind of therapeutic techniques are used to correct these disorders?

[firewatcher]

I think that the mind can exert a huge influence on the state of the body, but it has physical limitations (pardon the pun.) Often Tibetan Monks are used as an extreme example of mind over body, they sit out in subfreezing weather and steam a wet blanket dry with their own body heat, generated through meditation. Using one of these monks as an example, let's say he cracks a tooth. No matter how hard he meditates, that tooth will not heal/grow back together. He can learn to ignore or even block the pain, but the tooth is still cracked. There is nothing that his mind can do about it. I don't think that the mind can "fix" everything, other than how we think or deal with our physical state of being. With an AUTONOMIC nervous system glitch, I am not sure we are even capable of that kind of mind/body influence, any more than we can change our own eye color. Can we deal with all the other stuff that our psyche lays on us that might make us sick? Sure, but regenerating nerves and changing the workings of the "uncontrollable" part of our nervous system with our minds...I don't believe that is possible. I agree with Ernie, it is the many doctors who tell us that we have "done this to ourselves" that are doing the greatest harm. By making us second guess and doubt ourselves, they create more anxiety and cause us to question and overanalyze every little thing that happens! THAT can destroy every last shred of self-esteem or self-confidence we ever had that could allow us to deal with our situation in the healthiest manner.

just my 2 cents...

[Broken_Shell]

Hi All,

It has been interesting to read everyone's thoughts. I have looked into this area of mind-body medicine a little. I had two appointments with a nurse turned psychologist whose practice emphasized "mind-body" theories, but found it wasn't for me. I have a couple of thoughts on the topic. One is that mind-body medicine is based off of "accessing" and using the autonomic nervous system to create a physical change in the body. Well, for us that means trying to fix something that is broken with the thing that is broken! I definately think that people can improve themselves through positive thinking and such, but I think that practice has limitations when it comes to physical-driven conditions like dysautonomia. Sure, if someone started getting autonomic symptoms - increased heart rate, dizzy, sweating, out of breath, etc. because they were nervous about public speaking for example, then I think that this type of medicine could help them. For years, before I understood my symptoms I thought, "why am I getting 'anxiety-like' symptoms because I had a bowel movement or because I stood up and walked down a hallway? what is going on? I don't feel mentally or psychologically anxious about going to the bathroom!" Besides, I think that I (and probably most of us) use a lot of positive thinking and "self therapy" just to get through each day. Everytime I try to stand up and wash a few dishes or do whatever other task, I am constantly saying to myself "You're fine... your body is struggling but you will make it through this 5 minute activity. Just trust that God will get you through. Be strong. Be fast. Be brave because you are stronger than your body and you can do this."

I certainely wouldn't discourage anyone from trying anything that might help them manage better, especially if they experience anxiety or depression over their dysautonomia. Different things work for different people, and I think that each of us is so incredibly in-tune with our bodies that when we try something with an open mind, I think that we have a pretty good judgement as to whether or not it will be beneficial for us.

~ Broken_Shell ... ok, maybe that smile is an exaggeration this morning!

[carinara]

The psychosomatic question was something that i got involved in very deep in the last 10 years. When i was so very sick years before i got diagnosed and my doctors didnt find anything wrong with me, they told me that it must be psychosomatic and you know what? there was a time when i really believed that it must be this way. I went to a million therapys, i went on two psychosomatic rehabs and i read many many books. I always wanted to become a psychologist myself and all them different therapies really interested me. I almost always ended up becoming good friends with all the doctors because we always had much in common.. I really wanted to understand what was wrong with me, and why i couldnt stand up and walk, why my HR just goes mad when i get up and why my ANS is so very sensitive. We searched through all my childhood, my whole personality we searched through and worked through. i had a happy childhood and there was nothing i could remember that went wrong with me so that my body gets that sick. One thera

pist told me, that it must have been the occasion when i accidently fell of a chair when i was a few months old, in his opinion i must have gotten so scared that my heartbeat went crazy and my body remembered it and decided to always act like this, then i started to meditate and visualize how i could stay upright, it didnt help. Then i practised the "mind over body" game. Can you believe that i went on a marathon (fell and had a bad accident) and into the sauna once a week for almost a year ( made me so sick with a HR of 180). I know within myself that i tried all the things there are to try to get rid of this so called psychosomatic thing.When i got finally diagnosed in 2007, i was bedridden and couldnt even go to the toilet on my own (all that because i fell of this chair when i was a baby?) i finally found out about POTS and had a lot of tests done to me. I saw the german POTS expert and he told me once and for all, that POTS is not a psychosomatic illness, there is no way that you can control your blood

flow mentally. Of course your way of thinking can make a difference of the way you handle this illness, but you cant cure it. And you know what? thats exactly what may experiences are. I remember reading about this also on the ndrf handbook (mind-body, page 63) it says: The ANS operates exactly at the border of the mind and body. The brain uses and depends on the ANS for the internal adjustments that accompany every motion a person performs and every emotion a person feels.....

[Ernie]

Hi

[yogini]

I think there is a mind body connection which needs to be investigated a lot more by scientists. I think the proponents of the mind body connection often take things too far and say that everything can be helped if you just put your mind to it. That is particularly hard to hear for many of us, since doctors who don't know POTS try to tell us that it's in our heads. I remember last year Oprah had a woman who decided to skip breast cancer treatment because she was instead thinking positive thoughts. I wonder what happened to that woman, but I wouldn't want to be her!

I've had POTS for 5 years, and have done breathing exercises for the past 4 years and yoga for almost 2 years. These are supposed to bring the autonomic nervous system in line, but I still have POTS. I feel better doing these things, but at the end of the day I still have a physical condition.

[Guest GayleP]

Hi Ana,

There are many disorders from psychiatric disorders to physical disorders. Some of them are depression, PTSD, anxiety, panic attack (the real ones), cancer, diabetes, anemia, weak immune system, muscle pain, flu, pneumonia. One person might have a psychosomatic pneumonia even if she is still physically sick and the other will have only physical pneumonia. Each person is different. My specialty was to give consultation to people and help them find the psychosomatic reason for their disorder and help them walk through the healing process.

But when someone has a genetic disorder it is much more difficult to help because there is little psychosomatic reason if none that make the person sick. I would say that the psychosomatic reason that makes us sick is doctors telling us repeatedly that it is all in our head!

What is psychosomatic pneumonia?

[mjan]

For those of you still struggling to understand PSYCHO-SOMATIC or. MIND-BODY notion..its probably because someone made you feel its ALL in your head..or..cuz you're anxious (need a psychiatrist)..etc We are often not believed..dismissed..misjudged..mis understood..etc etc.

All I am saying is that there is a CONNECTION..subconsciously. For example.. holding IN our feelings..like anger..can lead to changes in our bodies on a CHEMICAL level.. and long enough inside our body these chemical changes lead to DIS-EASE.

Its NOT your fault. And now I dont mind if someone says. "Its all in your head"...well..in some cases it IS!!! My brain has LESIONS and inflmmation and imbalances due to toxins..etc..and so YESSS all that causes neuro or physical symptoms.

Of ALL folks around WE undersand how this happens.. and how often we get misjudged or labeled.. of misdiagnosed.

Jan

[mjan]

For those of you still struggling to understand PSYCHO-SOMATIC or. MIND-BODY notion..its probably because someone made you feel its ALL in your head..or..cuz you're anxious (need a psychiatrist)..etc We are often not believed..dismissed..misjudged..mis understood..etc etc.

WHEN I said we're told "cuz you're anxious" I personally was not saying that to you. I was repeating what many of us have been told.. ANXIETY is often blamed when someone does not know what it is.. and frankly I am tired of ANXIETY.. a very real disorder gets to be the scapegoat when some MD does not know what "it" is...ok?

[Sophia3]

Psychosomatic pneumonia????????

I had REAL PNEUMONIA as a kid and that is serious.

Good grief, are we going to start labeling EVERYTHING Psychosomatic????????

This comes under New Age junk in my book where they love to blame the sick people.

*sigh* Some of this thread is not making sense to me with "everything" under the planet getting a psycho label on it suddenly.

Funny how many are insulted here when THEIR DOCTORS labeled their ANS stuff in their minds..so not sure why suddenly this term is being thrown around towards others.

?

[Ernie]

xx

[Ernie]

Hi,

[Sophia3]

Ernie, If your comments were directed at me, please chill out. I was not attacking YOU.

But if you ever almost died from pneumonia, it's no walk in the park.

And let's face it, the L.O.A. i.e. fits the "it's all in your head theory" and all that stuff from "The Secret" Says we all "Ask to be sick". I kid you not.

That's all I am sayin'

Doctors saying "we did a test and can not find what is wrong. Therefore, it's in your head" happens sometimes.

We've seen that happen.

[Ernie]

Hi,

I won't spend anymore time on this post because it's going nowhere and I don't want to loose my energy arguing about my career and the success I had. Some people just don't want to understand and they make problems and then say they are innocent.

[jump]

I think medicine doesn't understand the mind-body connection well enough yet to actually be able to determine what causes what. There's definitely some kind of connection, but it's so poorly understood.

For example, doctors used to believe that cancer was caused by holding in anger. Now we believe cancer is caused by cell mutation and we have drugs to treat it. But, they've also discovered that people who meditate have a greater chance of fully recovering from cancer.... so what's going on there?? Even though it's universally accepted that cancer is a biologically-based physical illness, it seems the mind can somehow impact it.

It used to be generally believed that depression was entirely "in the head" - that it was the mind that was unwell or unbalanced. Now we know the depressed mind has actual chemical problems, and that depression is a biologically-based physical illness as well -- and that it can cause other physical symptoms, like digestion problems and chronic pain. There are medications for it, but some people recover from this (biological, physical) illness just through non-medical interventions like talk therapy. Clearly, both the mind and the body are at work here, and we don't understand it very well.

I'm sure there IS some kind of mind connection to POTS, the same way there's probably some kind of mind connection for all illnesses. The problem I have is that even though meditation has been shown to help cancer patients, no one in their right mind would tell someone with cancer to ONLY meditate, and forgo chemotherapy and radiation. Instead they take the medication they need AND try meditation. Same thing with depression - doctors don't tell patients to ONLY take medication, or to ONLY do therapy. They encourage people to try both and find what works.

Doctors telling POTS patients to use ONLY mental/mind solutions is like telling someone with cancer to just meditate. It's fine if we acknowledge that there's some kind of mind/body connection we don't fully understand. But in treating illnesses, we have to go with what we know works, and more often than not what we know more about are the concrete medications that treat the body, not the mind. There are medications that help POTS, and there are physical lifestyle changes that help, too. Those things should be the first line of attack. If someone also finds therapy, meditation, or other "mind" solutions helpful to their symptoms, great. But they shouldn't be presented as the ONLY solution any more than they should be for other illnesses.