Hookah And Pots

[JeffKohrman]

So I've been using incense for temporary relaxation for quite some time now, and it makes me feel somewhat better. My body aches less, I have less GI cramping, and I don't get as dizzy upon standing. The only problem is that I have to fill the room with smoke before I feel any effects. That, and my father has terrible asthma.

This led me to look for more intense versions of incense, and while perusing a local head shop, I discovered hookah. I've done an enormous amount of research on the device itself, but not so much about POTS.

Anyway, I decided to take the risk and try it. Much to my surprise and relief, it actually alleviated many of my symptoms! Now, I was smoking herbal, tobacco free shisha, because tobacco is against my religion, but it honestly made me feel better. The effects then lasted for the next day and a half. If I could do that once a week, I'd be much more likely to get things done, and much happier, but I'm already mentally addicted to it.

You see, I don't know what negative effects this is going to have on me, that is why I haven't tried it since then. The herbal shisha is made out of Sugar Cane Bagasse, which is linked to Bagassosis, or Pulmonary Fibrosis, which scares the ever living poo out of me (I wish.. lol). The regular shisha tobacco contains, well, tobacco. If that were to have less health effects, I'd be willing to try it, but my fiance doesn't approve of that idea anyway.

I've read somewhere that the nicotine in tobacco helps some people with POTS, but I couldn't find any solid evidence of that.

Anyway, my question is this. Should I continue smoking the herbal shisha and risk the health problems, switch to smoking real shisha tobacco, or stop smoking all together? What alternatives have any of you tried/been successful with?

Any information would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Jeff

[potsgirl]

Hi Jeff,

I would have to vote on no smoking of any kind. I just don't see where that can possibly be good for your body in any way. Do you have POTS? OI? If you've only tried it once, how sure are you that the benefits are actually due to the hookah?

Cheers,

Jana

[kayjay]

Before I was diagnosed I chewed nicotine gum at work. I never smoked but I knew that an effect of nicotine is increased concentration. worked well for me but I am not sure it was a good idea. It can increase blood pressure and raise your heart rate.

I was just trying to get by. The medication I am on works better and I would never mix the two. Also I really don't seem to get addicted to things but many people do.

I agree with Potsgirl that smoking in general is not a good idea.

[JeffKohrman]

I've only recently been diagnosed with POTS (within the past year), and I'm still doing testing for other problems.

It's my guess that it wasn't just inhaling smoke, but the entire act. It's very methodical, and knowable, so there was no stress getting started, and no stress throughout the whole process. I was sitting in a very comfortable room, with my fiance, and felt very at ease, but afterwards, I felt pretty danged good, compared to how I usually am. I'm just wondering if it's something to look further into, seeing as I can't remember the last time I've felt that good. My body didn't ache, I wasn't dizzy, headache free, even my stomach felt considerably better (although that was the first thing to come back to normal..). I don't know, I think I'm pretty desperate to find a fix, even though I know there probably isn't one ultimate answer.

[kayjay]

Ok still trying to talk you out of it but you could try yoga exercises.

I'm sure there is something to the act of smoking as well as what you are smoking... Just might add to your problems later in life.

My example for me would be that I would feel great if I drank beer (really all the time). It slows my heart rate, relaxes me etc.... but it is not a good idea and does not really solve or treat my problems... it could cause other problems... oh and I'd be drunk...

[Stace915]

I tried smoking a hookah once since I have gotten sick with POTs and it was a BAD idea. I am not a smoker in general but a friend owns one and took it out one night while I was at his house. I could not even stand up after I smoked it and I felt like I was stuck in a major POTs episode the rest of the evening... I am very surprised to hear that it made you feel good! I guess as long as it is helpful keep doing it but it was definitely a bad bad idea for me.

[Mrs. Burschman]

You see, I don't know what negative effects this is going to have on me, that is why I haven't tried it since then. The herbal shisha is made out of Sugar Cane Bagasse, which is linked to Bagassosis, or Pulmonary Fibrosis, which scares the ever living poo out of me (I wish.. lol). The regular shisha tobacco contains, well, tobacco. If that were to have less health effects, I'd be willing to try it, but my fiance doesn't approve of that idea anyway.

Hey Jeff. I don't think I've seen you around these POTS parts before. Welcome!

Do you know how much exposure people have had to the bagasse before it led to pulmonary fibrosis? If it was way more than you'd ever get by smoking it once in a while, maybe it's worth the risk. Especially if it helps you.

If I were you, I think I'd at least try it a couple more times, to see if you get the same positive reaction. If yes, then you could decide if it's worth the risk to you to continue (and talk it over with a doctor.) If no, then maybe something else led to you feeling better.

I'm glad you got to enjoy feeling well for a while!

Amy

[erik]

Only Hookah experience I have was when a buddy brought one back from Afghanistan a few years back and a bunch of us tried different flavored tobaccos... however "treatment" was combined with copious beer, band & conversation. No idea if it had any effect POTS-wise, but it gave great flavor & no harsh effect, made cool smoke and was socially fun! I think apple was the consensus favorite.

Anyway, whether or not it ends up being a viable long term practice, I'd look closely at what might be in the stuff that might be helping. It could be a clue to other treatment possibilities that might be just as helpful with less potential risk. Who knows, maybe a tea made from the stuff would work too? Hard to say what risks are.

[JeffKohrman]

I'm open to other suggestions too, such as yoga (which is a bit too strenuous for me) or tai chi (Just found a local place that offers FREE sessions!).

There was a study done on Bagassosis not too long ago (the files said Valid and were dated 2007), thanks for reminding me, Amy! The results said that out of 500 light, medium, and heavy smokers, only 30% of them showed signs of Bagassosis over a period of five years. A light smoker was classified as smoking 1-8 times a day, and using 150g to 250g a bowl. That is WAY more than anything I'd be using, since the average bowl size at the Hookah Bar is 10g - 20g, and that lasted me over an hour.

Other than that one study, the rest is on factory workers who process bagasse, and the conditions in which they tend to work in are much worse than smoking it, in my opinion.

Thanks again, Amy, it was wonderful to feel that good!

I will certainly be talking this over with more doctors! I understand that this is a big risk, and as such, I should be equally cautious.

As far as I know, the ingredients of the shisha are Sugar Cane Bagasse, Light Molasses, and Food-Grade Glycerin. I recall molasses being somewhat helpful to my GI system, but no explanation has been given to me as to why.

It's certainly worth a try to make a tea out of it!

Thanks again for all the help! So far, this forum's been great!

[Tachy Phlegming]

When I have difficulty breathing, I now use nicotine. When I use nicotine, I notice that 25-40 minutes later, my breathing has improved, i.e., my breathing changes from high in my chest to abdominal breathing (and I'm not sitting there taking deep breaths and feeling like I can't get a full breath). Huperzine A seems to do the same thing. I am trying to get Mestinon but haven't gotten it as yet -- so these are the two substitutes I am using in the interim. I've been sick for a long time with no remedy for this problem for years so I was happy to figure out (some months ago) that these two things would help. My understanding is that any form of nicotine will help so if you're up to it, you can try different types. (And by the way, I didn't, don't, and wouldn't use nicotine except as medication, had no idea it had any possible medical use/benefit until the last few months, and it is totally taboo in my social circles ...)

[Sophia3]

nicotine..hmm, years ago it was said to be helpful but I can't remember if it was in my pre OI and only CFS stage (Dr. Goldstein's medical protocol? now retired CFS specialist from out west) or from ANS articles..or maybe both.

I remember years ago discussing different things with my doctor and he said nicotine might help with that but didn't want me to go that route as it's VERY expensive (that patch was) and gum back then was nasty. And he said smoking, while controlling the nico would not be good. I could never inhale anyway..made me dizzy.

so the long answer to rambling, I know nothing about Hookah but Nicotine can be good.

There was even a mod on a yahoo site years ago who smoked like 5- 7 cigarettes a day to help her fainting...and I think only 1/2 cigs... Hey whatever works, ya know?

[Tachy Phlegming]

There is also a spray. The patch could irritate skin and for those who are sensitive to them, there are artificial sweeteners in all of the gums.

(And one more note -- I'd need more than I could or would take for breathing problems arising from exposure to certain kinds of stimuli).

[ramakentesh]

Yeah in some people there appears to be a problem with the parasympathetic receptor activity and I think I read that nicotine acted on a specific type of ace. receptor that improved parasympathetic function.

I must admit, in Mexico I developed a taste for cuban cigars. Ive smoked about three in the last twelve months - one made me feel heaps better the other two much worse. I think its hit and miss and might even depend on what time of the day you do it.

When my POts is bad i react to most everything - when its better or strangely if I drink a smal amount of alcohol I dont react abnormally. work that out.

[Maxine]

Different things work for different people.

Scary though-----------cigarettes have so many different chemicals that cause cancer, I think I would find other ways to constrict my blood vessels. Nicotine constricts blood vessels, and it's true, some people I know said they feel better when they smoke.

I smoked for about 15 years, and I quit in 1990. I quit because smoking aggravated my symptoms---I had spells of tachycardia at the time, and had no idea what was wrong, and the only thing doctors could attribute it to was a MVP. However, a couple years later I was told I didn't have MVP. I was officially diagnosed with MVP back in 1982, and after suffering panic attacks for a few months in late 1981 and part of 1982, I was symptom free for the most part until 1990. After a bad spell in 1990 I was put on beta blockers that controlled my symptoms. I had no other symptoms other then mild fatigue and fluish feeling along with tachycardia in late 1990. The fatigue and fluish feeling went away in about three months, but the tachycardia still had to be controlled with beta blockers. I was able to cut back on the BBs, but in late 2000 I crashed very badly, and you can see what happened after that in my signature line.

I can't imagine any type of smoking as an actual treatment for POTS. However, it does make some people feel relief in symptoms probably from the constriction of blood vessels. I think when I was having panic attacks from the POTS back before I knew it was POTS my smoking definately made me feel worse. Now that I don't really experience the panic attack type symptoms, I wonder if a smoke would help in my blood pooling? I sure wouldn't start back up, but I do wonder.

MY brother who passed away smoked, and he had many POTS symptoms for years. I often wonder if smoking made him feel better. He smoked more when he was playing in gigs with the band. He would stand for long periods either playing base or lead----sometimes acoustic guitar. He used to have such bad spells of tachycardia, and docs never found anything wrong with his heart.

Who knows if the smoking caused his colon cancer. I just know I quit at the time I was having panic attacks.

My theory is that my blood vessels were constricting big time back then trying to correct the blood pooling I didn't know I had. I remember feeling a WHOOOOOOSH in my gut every time before the attacks hit me. It almost felt like I could feel my blood pool---especially in my abdomen. I suppose the nicotine aggravated my symptoms at the time-----but might not now.

My lungs have mild institial marking on them now, and I'm very scared of the cancer in our family. Smoking is just dangerious.

Maxine :0)

[yogini]

If you enjoy it and it makes you feel good, then use it once in a while and that will probably be OK. But I think any short-term benefit would be outweighed by the long term effects of smoking on your heart and lungs. If you've just been diagnosed, there are probably lots of more traditional treatments that you haven't tried yet. I'd go with those first rather than trying to self-medicate.

[JeffKohrman]

Okay, so I think I'm going to do a more controlled test this time. That is, IF I can get ahold of another Hookah, I don't want to go back to the lounge, my fiance didn't love it and it's expensive.

Anyway, I'll be monitoring my BP/HR as well as recording what times I wake up, any activities throughout the day, and monitoring Intake/Output. That way, I'll have all the variables written down, no forgetting some small detail which will no doubt be of the utmost importance.

Erik said to look at what's in the shisha. Well, what I used consists of bagasse, light molasses, and glycerin. I don't know of any medications made of bagasse, but I have heard of Milk and Molasses enemas (ruined gingerbread cookies for me, but were somewhat successful), as well as Glycerin suppositories (no effect), and drinking large doses of Glycerin (somewhat successful, mostly nauseating).

The earliest I could get an appointment with my POTS Dr. is late December.

I'm trying to find any Tai Chi instructors, massage therapists, etc. in the area, but I would only be able to afford one session every other month. Financially, Hookah is looking like my only feasible option for pain management.

I suppose I'll just have to wait until something comes available, and I'll return with my findings.

Thanks again for all the help, everyone! And I am always open for any comments or suggestions!

[Mrs. Burschman]

I took tai chi at my local YMCA when I lived in South Dakota. You might check your local Y. It was cheap! And relaxing.

[erik]

I suppose it might be easier to get a hold of a... umm... err... "water pipe" device rather than a proper hookah. The one thing I remember about the hookah was how pleasant the smoke was... cool and soothing. Totally unlike a cigarette.

From the ingredients of the stuff I am wondering if smoking out of an old-fashioned corn-cob pipe might get you the same active ingredients! But funny stuff happens chemically on ignition of things... so the starting ingredients may or may not be the active ingredient once inhaled. I suppose a "nebulizer" could be worth a try too although with different burn style one invites a different variety of results too... it might destroy your desired ingredient or maybe it would emphasize it (and who knows if it would increase or reduce any toxic components).

I guess you either need a really sharp chemistry lab that can do a full analysis of the burnt result... or you're going to have to make best guess based on whatever studies are out there. I was hoping there was some underlying ingredient that might ring a bell... like if it had licorice then I'd mention the licorice root or fludrocortisone approach or something. Maybe a biochemist out there would know what the stuff does. Is it an "ancient traditional practice" kind of thing, or is it something the kids came up with because they couldn't score something else? (I once had a friend try to get me to smoke pine needles as a kid... silly kids)

Do the articles that mention the risks of chronic high dose usage happen to mention what the biological effect is that draws people to use the stuff? Does it make you feel really calm... like a sedative? Does it lower heart rate? The stuff is a mystery to me!

[yogini]

Try DVDs if you can't find a class. In addition to tai chi, restorative yoga and stretching are really great and POTS-friendly, as they can be done on the floor.

[Tachy Phlegming]

I can't get Mestinon. I have (prescription) nicotine spray as my consolation prize and recently got that herbal supplement (Huperzine A) instead of a prescription medication which my doctors are aware that I need.

Right now, cancer, diabetes, and heart disease have been ruled out for me but collapsing, breathing in a manner unlike everyone I know, having food and liquids come out of my body at an alarming rate, and a constantly high heart rate are ruled in.

When I felt healthy, I did things other people considered healthy (very slightly modified because I had minor symptoms in childhood). Being this sick has forced me into a lifestyle and choices I never wanted so that I can feel as good as possible. For now, nicotine goes into the bag with avoiding fiber, not having milk, onions, most fruit, and whatever other foods are "healthy" for everyone else I know, and avoiding sun and heat.

Without nicotine, I have scary sleeping, wrong breathing (with the accompanying high heart rate), inability to eat a whole lot, urinary and bowel frequency (fairly recent). With it, my symptoms are lessened or much lessened depending on the symptom. Apart from breathing during the day, it helped with jerking awake at night unable to breathe. It was getting to be every night. Now, maybe it happens once a week. For what it's worth:

http://chestjournal.chestpubs.org/content/...1.full.pdf+html

When I stop using it for a few days, bowel problems which go away with nicotine return. For what it's worth:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2502541/

I know we all celebrate the discovery of new conditions like ulcerative colitis and Crohn's (that very elated post today was a cause for great joy ); but I have avoided instant gratification for years and want to wait on this great development.

If I wanted another reason to do what I'm doing for right now, there are studies which show the risk of cancer greatly increased from colitis itself:

http://www.ccfa.org/frameviewer/?url=/media/pdf/cancer.pdf

(Oh no, I hope that doesn't mean no celebration for ulcerative colitis if I end up on some regimen where I get it??? )

[JeffKohrman]

Just a quick note; Apparently the molasses used is high in salt content.

Whenever I have a terrible headache, I usually end up craving salt. Anyone else get that?

I'll also be looking for some exercise DVD's, thanks!

I've tried going to my local Y, but I don't do very well in large groups.. I'm actually a very shy and awkward person.

The way hookahs work is by loosely filling the bowl with shisha, then wrapping the bowl in tin foil, poking small holes in the foil, and placing a red hot coal on top of that. By taking a draw from the hose, you pull the heat through the shisha, into the water, then to you. This process doesn't actually "burn" anything, it dries it out. So what you're actually smoking is the moisture in the shisha, rather than the byproduct of it's combustion. If you do end up burning your shisha, you'll know, the pleasant smooth smoke will suddenly be harsh and bitter tasting.

I'm really interested in trying a tea made of the shisha too. Heck, right now, I'd probably eat it straight from the can..

[erik]

Wow. I see. Sounds more like a "tea mist" than smoke. That explains why the stuff was so smooth and "comfortable" compared to an ignited direct tobacco. I assume there would be less of the toxic burning byproduct too, when done properly as you describe. Yeah... that means a water pipe by itself (unless you could adapt the process to it) wouldn't be the same since it's basically just cooling down normal incendiary products.

BTW, some time in the future when I have money to spare I plan to play with one of those electronic cigarettes! They look fascinating and kind of humorous at the same time.

If the stuff basically cured you for a day or so... it is hard to ignore. Must be some way to harness that process or learn from it. The salt thing is intriguing... I would be surprised if benefit is just the salt but who knows. Maybe inhaling salty moist air is a therapy? I don't know.

[Rachel Cox]

wow! this forum is fantastic. this is close to one of the conundrums i've been facing. i don't know what hookah is, but since my diagnosis i have turned back to cigarettes. not for medicinal purposes, but out of emtional desperation. they made me feel more in control of my life (go figure!) I know that is crazy. but the nicotine thing has been on my mind and I wondered if I could use patches or gum. I was too embarassed to ask my doctor but i think now I will. smoking is so horrid to everyone else and I know my husband is worried i will get back to a smoking habit like i used to have. i don't want that on top of everything else, just want to feel better.

...maybe i need to find out about hookah!?

[JeffKohrman]

It's very interesting to me that so many people have found that nicotine helps!

While smoking Hookah may help me, I am in no way suggesting to anyone else that they start smoking for medical reasons!

Smoking's dangerous, and any type of smoke in a carcinogen.

The reasoning behind so-called anti-hookah is that the shear mass of smoke being inhaled makes a one hour session the equivalent of 2.5 cigarettes. My argument is that in one hour, you could smoke many more than 2.5 cigarettes, since the average time it takes to smoke one cigarette is 3-5 minutes, in theory, one would then have to smoke 12-20 cigarettes. Talk about chain smoking!

The only reason that the shisha manufacturers can state "Tar Free" is that when used properly, you wouldn't burn any of it, keeping the tar inside of the tobacco leaves. Tobacco NATURALLY has tar! Tobacco by itself isn't necessarily good for you, just some parts of it are.

I'm only experimenting with this because it's been suggested by a friend. It also happens to work for me, as far as I know, and I plan to try it again in a more controlled environment in order to assess the results. I will also be bringing my findings to my Dr., and assessing it's benefits/risks with them.

Not to completely turn you off of Hookah, but I just want you to be well informed before you take such a risk. If still interested, hookahhookah.com, hookah-shisha.com, and wikipedia.org are helpful places to get started. If you don't want to bother with online research, check out your local head shop/smoke shop! Or you can just talk to me, I've learned quite a bit about it since I first heard of Hookah.

And this forum is pretty danged cool, I've been putting off getting an account here for months because I was afraid to learn more about my conditions, but it's been extremely helpful to see what other people are going through!

[ramakentesh]

Its funny - things like a beer often help me more than any medication ive been given for POTS. work that out...

When Im bad a light beer will ALWAYS improve me. But if im ok, sometimes it will bring on POTS. Strange illness.