Sleep Problems

[ethansmom]

I used to sleep so soundly, and never had fatgiue problems until after my son was born. Ever since then, I've been a really light sleeper and have been exhausted. I don't think it's typical motherhood sleepiness- but I really need some answers.

I spend all day exhausted, until about 9/10 at night, then I can't seem to fall asleep. I lay there in bed and keep dozing off, but the littlest thing like David breathing next to me or the house settling will startle me awake and cost me an extra 30 minutes. I've tried sleeping with a fan on to block noise, but then I can't hear Ethan if he wakes up, and my tendency to be a light sleeper gets worse. It takes me 1-2 hours to get to sleep, and I toss and turn all night...and Ethan gets up promptly at 7:30 am. I can't even sleep later than that anymore. I've resorted to taking Tylenol PM about once a week just to get a good 8 hours of solid sleep, and after I take it I feel great the next day- but really don't want to resort to dependency on sleep meds. I've tried chamomile tea, taking a bath before bed, doing yoga in the evenings, watching TV or reading before bed, etc...and nothing helps. However, I have no trouble taking a 2 hour nap every afternoon- but that seems to further exacerbate the nighttime issues...

Any ideas? I now I should do a sleep study, but I am not insured right now and can't even think about doing any involoved medical testing. Just looking for some insight...I know you guys will have some info

[Merrill]

Hi Jess. I wouldn't worry about not pursuing a sleep study right now--to be honest (and having just had one)--I wouldn't say it would give you the answers you're looking for. (I had mine because I was having really scary central apnea episodes.)

I have just a couple thoughts--first, I imagine that with the sale of your house and your upcoming move, you've got an awful lot on your mind right now! That in itself can mess up your sleep ... Do you find yourself churning the same thoughts over and over in your mind as you try to fall asleep? Do you return to those thoughts during the night when you wake up, or first thing in the morning? (This happens to me ALL the time, especially these days when under a lot of extra stress.) Or maybe you find yourself worrying about the fact that your not sleeping--and that can keep you up at night too!

If your POTS symptoms are really bad during the day, your sleep can also be affected, I think. So taking good care of yourself--as you already do--and trying to manage those symptoms as best you can is also likely to help some.

It sounds like you've tried some good, relaxing evening activities. Here are a couple suggestions: try sticking to a sleep routine, same thing every night, same lights out time, to get into a rhythm. I find when I'm churning ideas over in my head that it helps to spend a few minutes writing those thoughts down--they're out of my head and on a page and I don't have to think about them anymore. Finally, I can recommend the Healthful Sleep CD (I think that's the name) from Healthjourneys.com. (Way cheaper than a sleep study!) I listen to that from time to time and it 's great. I'm sure there are other companies/options for sleep cd's--that's just the one I've tried.

Take good care,

Merrill

[blackwolf]

I've had sleeping trouble for over a year now. I find the biggest thing that helps me is not to nap. I know it seems to be hard, I'm also a Mom to a 10 and 7 year old. At this point in my illness, I dont know how you keep up with a little one. I have to admit that I do take a pill to help me sleep. I currently use Amytriptline to sleep, I take it once or twice a week to help me stay on a schedule. Otherwise I find my sleeping to to disturbed to do anything. At least when I wake up, I have a few hours of less pain and a little more energy for later in the day when my kids are really active.

Hope you find some that works for you.

Blackwolf

[MightyMouse]

My sleep study was read as "normal", but like you, I had very unrestful sleep. My doctors and I have worked with several meds, finally settling on Ambien. It helps me fall asleep and stay asleep without feeling groggy the next day. Exercise helps me too, but I can't seem to sustain a routine.

Try to go to bed at the same time each night (ie. good sleep hygeine).

Other meds and herbs that didn't help me were:

melatonin--had very vivid nightmares on this

valerian root--peeee UUUuuuuu, was this ever stinky stuff, and didn't help me

sonata--left me very groggy

doxepin--ditto

Nina

[calypso]

Hi Jessica,

I am like you in that I get more energy as the day goes on. At least I think that's what you are saying. I don't have any real original ideas for you but do think having a glass of milk at night really does help me, as does doing any exercise at least four hours before I go to sleep. Exercise tends to energize me. I also do not believe in naps (I know everyone here at potsplace will curse me for that one!). I think they tend to throw people off of their natural sleep patterns. If you must nap, try 20-minute ones. Or try doing yoga for 20 minutes instead of the nap. I know that may sound ambitious when you are tired, but it really helps me.

I think the key is to stay awake at least 15 hours during the day and sleep about 7-8 at night. If you don't nap, you will be plenty tired. I know you like to do yoga before bed. Just try to do the more relaxing poses, not anything that builds strength or energizes. It's probably keeping you up.

Amy

[Ling]

Dear Jessica

My heart breaks for you and I understand all to well. I have a few tips no one has mentioned. I don’t eat sugar before I sleep it keeps me awake. But coffee makes me sleepy. The sugar problem for this one. I take Magnesium tablets for heart cramps and this has help me allot to sleep better. I recently increased my Inderal to 160mg and this too has help me sleep. A very slow heart rate has improved my sleeping allot. I must be honest I do wake up at least 2 or more times a night. To go to the bathroom, drink water or if Jasmine wakes me up to go to the bathroom. Been like this my whole life, don’t know any other way actually.

You sound like a wonderful normal mom to me. Who is probably just over stressed and exhausted at the moment. Try and keep one day a week open where you do nothing. I have chosen Saturday to sleep late and do nothing physical. It gives me more energy to face the week ahead. This helps me with the chronic fatigue syndrome problems. Thinking of you and relax more!

[KarenLorrel]

Some more thoughts and experiences. Unrefreshed sleep is such a problem for me...I feel for you.

I had not had a refreshing sleep for 4 years until about 6 months ago when Dr. Grubb prescribed Prosom. He explained to me that Prosom was developed for the sole purpose of aiding sleep. The other meds that I have tried were developed for other conditions and were USED to help with sleep. They are expected to have a residual effect the next day because they were developed for 'other' conditions..for example a medicine used to treat seizure may help with sleep but it will stay in your system longer to help prevent a seizure...which was the medicines intended 'job.' The residual effects from the meds were awful for me.

I take 1 mg about 1 hour before going to bed. I sleep 7-8 hours...and wake up refreshed. I have not had any residual effects from the Prosom.

I took about every know sleeping aid prior to Prosom. (This is a short term memory list...I would have to look into my cupboard to list all of them!!)

Tylenol pm...gave me unsettling dreams...and my thinking was disjointed after a few nights on it.

Melotonin

Valerian

Passiflora...herb..did help a little

Ativan....made me 'crazy' after 3 nights of using it.

Sonata...gave me 4 hours of sleep

Elavil...very aggratated and vivid dreams..headaches...awful

Clonipan(not sure of spelling)

I could go on and on but each had a pretty significant side effect for me.

I have tried at least 7 different prescriptions.

Prosom has been very effective but I am very conservative about medications so tonight I tried to take a half of the Prosom and an herb...I talked to doctor and it was okay to try. I don't want to depend on Prosom forever. I sleep about 3 1/2 hours...waking to many sounds..storm...dog panting...experienced a very light sleep. It is 4:30am and I am up...not a refreshing sleep;

I will try half a Prosom tomorrow night and a different herb...passiflora...and see how I sleep. If this doesn't work I will go back to the Prosom because I have been making great progress and I don't want to mess it up.

I hope you can get some restful sleep...it makes a huge difference. At my first appt with Dr. Grubb he asked me what I wanted to work on first and my response was...a refreshed sleep. So that is where I began....trying to figure out what would allow my ANS to settle down so I could sleep.

I know that everyone's body is different but here is my experience...for what it is worth. Take care....I hope you can figure sometime out...not sleeping makes each day an even greater challenge...Thoughts and prayers.....Lorrell

[Meghan]

Jessica,

All the suggestions so far are good! I have one more that no one has brought up. When I mentioned to my POTS doctor that I wanted my sleep to be more restoritive, he suggested that I put lavender essential oil on the four corners of my pillow. I actually use a lavender/vanilla scented pillow mist from Bath and Body Works, which is easier than putting the oil right on my pillow. I don't know if it actally makes my sleep more restoritive, but it seems to help me fall asleep quicker. The scent of lavender is supposted to be relaxing and aid in sleep, so it's something you might want to try!

~Meghan

[ethansmom]

Thanks everyone for all your wonderful suggestions. I will try some of these things and see what happens.

Is Ambien over the counter? I need something OTC that I can take 1-2 times per week, only if I have something major going on the next day and I want to be alert and energized...and definitely something that won't make me groggy the next day. On the other nights I am going to try some of the techniques you all mentioned, and try to get myself on a 10pm-7:30 am schedule with no naps. I do think that naps are interfering with my nighttime sleep, but my body is so compelled to sleep in mid-afternoon...maybe I should try a 20-30 minute rest for a while instead of 1-2 hours of hard sleep.

I skipped my nap altogether yesterday and STILL couldn't sleep until after midnight...then back up at 7am. It's so frustrating! And I had spent the entire day weak and exhausted from lack of sleep, but come 10pm I was feeling great and wide awake. I hope I can get things to improve, we have a busy couple of weeks ahead of us with the move and everything

[MightyMouse]

Nope, Ambien is definitely an Rx item.

I forgot to add that I use benedryl too. Actually, benedryl is the ingredient used in most OTC sleep aids. Don't waste your money on those otc sleep products--just get some generic diphenhydramine (benedryl) and save yourself some cash. I prefer the capsules--for some reason the other types don't seem to last a full 8 hours (caplets, tablets). I take it for both allergies and sleep issues. It keeps me from having allergy attacks and asthma during the night, which was my most horrible asthma time. I'd wake up choking and coughing every night without it. The long term solution would be to get rid of our carpets upstairs, but that's going to cost us more than 6000 bucks, so the cheaper solution is definitely benedryl!!! (combined with advair, flonase, zyrtec, singulair and sinus rinsing).

Nina

[ethansmom]

Ugghhh Nina, your problems do NOT sound like fun. Luckily my allergies are usually quite mild (although the food allergies more than make up for the seasonal ones!!).

I wonder if it would be worth a trip to the doctor to try Ambien. Is that one fairly mild? What are the side effects? Do you have to take it every night, or just as needed?

[MightyMouse]

I take it just as needed. It comes in several strengths--I get the 10 mg ones-- and often, I just break it in half and take 5 mg. I only take it as needed, not every night. Like you, I can sometimes be very wakeful at night--those are the nights I seem to need it. At this point, I'm only taking it once a week or so... I usually take it when I notice my sleep schedule getting really off track. I will take it for a few days until I'm regulated again. I also take it when I travel so that I can stay rested and keep from getting sick.

Nina

[migraine]

Hey Jessica:

Did you happen to catch the sleep special that was on around 8:00pm a few weeks ago? It was on TV on a regular channel. I thought it was very informational. Your story is familiar to me. After I had my 2nd child I felt very restless. I was trying to work, be a perfect Mom, and sing in a band on the weekends. My children were up very early, and I was totally exhausted. At night I just laid in bed and think about how many things I had to do and count the hours that I would not be getting sleep.

Anyway this sleep special said the number one sleep disorder is insomnia. If it takes you more than 30 minutes to fall asleep or you wake up several times during the night....then you've got it! This is almost always stress related. You can either take something to help you sleep or go to therapy. I saw a shrink for exactly two sessions...he simply said, "you are doing way too many things, something must go!" I quit the band. That gave me my weekends free and time to clean, think, plan, and be with my kids. Once I was able to prepare for the week ahead...I stopped thinking about it each night before bed. Anyway, it sounds like you're overloaded as well.

Once I had the 3rd child I was able to fall asleep about 1 minute after hitting the pillow. Now I can't seem to get enough "restful sleep" and was diagnosed yesterday with sleep apnea. Geez what next! So I guess I get to get started on this CPAP machine, we'll see if I feel any better or its a big waste. Meanwhile, my husband is clearly on the insomnia path so I am really trying to coordinate our sleep habits.....

The most important thing they mentioned on the sleep special is your wake-up time. If you have insomnia it is not what time you go to bed that is important...it's what time you get up and get going. I have two definitions of this. During the week I get up at 7:00am and get going to work! During the weekend my kids force me to get up between 7:30-8:00am...but I'm not really going, if you know what I mean. I sort of meander and slowly start my day. I may not even shower until 10:00am or something. Anyway, I guess my theory would be even if you are up at 7:30am every morning...you need to get going. Pretend you are going to work or do an excersice or something. This might help your sleep pattern. Also, I guess you're not really suppose to take much more than a 30 minute nap during the day...otherwise you may be groggy and have trouble falling asleep at night. It was a very informational program. I wish you the best with your routine.

Oh - PS, they also mentioned training your body to recognize that you are ready to sleep. Some of the suggestions listed above would work such as drinking warm milk, the smell of lavender, or a warm bath before bed.

[KarenLorrel]

Calmforte(brand name) is a mixture of sleeping herbs which is OTC. I buy it at Walgreens/CFS and at our local Health Food Store. It has been helpful for me in the past and for everal of my friends.

Does not have an unpleasant taste. I asked the doctor if it would interfer with my meds..and was told that it would not.

[anecius]

I just wanted to add that I too suffer from extreme fatigue during the day, but had difficulties falling asleep at night, especially on days when I gave in to a nap. Instead of giving me something to make me sleep at night (which usually backfires and makes me feel worse during the day, if I can even wake up), my doc prescribed Provigil. I take a very low dose that keeps me alert during the day so I don't feel the need to nap. I was able to get into a pattern where I fall asleep almost right after my head hits the pillow. Oh! That reminds me! What kind of pillow do you use? I invested in an isotonic pillow and matress pad, which has also done wonders for my sleep! Good luck!

[migraine]

Yes, I too invested in a better mattress and pillow. I bought one of those tempre pedic mattresses and it came with a pillow. I must warn you that going from my comfy, squishy, old mattress to this firm relentless intruder was quite an adjustment. It took me an entire month to get used to it and I even called to take it back. They made me keep it for a month insisting that it would get better, and that it took that long for the foam to loosen a little. It did, and now I really feel a difference if I sleep on a hotel bed or something.

I fall asleep much quicker. My joints (especially for POTS patients) feel so much better. My feet used to crack and ache in the morning along with my hips and they don't anymore. A lot of my neck problems have also gone away since using the pillow (also hard to get used to.) Anyway, it's quite an investment, but if all else fails it might be worth looking into.

[ethansmom]

I have a tempur-pedic pillow that David bought me while I was pregnant, and that has helped me with the neck pain SO much- which in turn helps me sleep...

So here's my update...I skipped my nap two days in a row and fell asleep by 11pm. The first night I tossed and turned and got about 8 hours of turbulent sleep. But last night I was up at 3am and did not fall asleep until almost 6am, and back up at 8 with Ethan. I drank Chamomile tea at 4am and it did nothing I am soooo tired today...just keep waking up at night thinking about this move and all the thigns I need to do lol. I am in the process of making a doctors appointment to request some Ambien, so that maybe I can take it once or twice a week to get some rest until we get moved in down in FL. I'll let you all know how it goes, and thanks again for the suggestions and advice!!

[migraine]

Jessica, it sounds like this move has you really freaked out. If not a shrink, I think you really need to sit down with a good friend and vent...or have a nightly venting session with your husband before you go to bed and get it all out so you can sleep.

When I moved into my first house (no kids yet) I had so much energy and was so excited. Every box was labeled and packed just so and I was completely moved in with everything put away in about a day. My second move was not so pretty...

Having 3 kids I came home from work and stared at the house and everything that needed to be packed, planned, and organized. It was so overwhelming that I simply didn't do anything at all - totally out of charactar for me. My husband was in shock at my inability to "get moving." I ended up running to a grocery store (on moving day) for boxes and simply throwing anything in my path into boxes. 2 years later and we are still unpacking boxes and re-discovering property and cooking utensils we forgot we had

You will get through this move somehow right? They say the most stressful things you will ever go through in life are a wedding, moving/house, birth, or death. You can do it! Hang in there...and then get some sleep

[Merrill]

Hi, restless sleepers! Jess, be gentle with yourself...sound sleep will be yours once more-after your move! What you're going through, even though it's exciting and positive, is incredibly stressful. Your idea about getting ambien is a good one, though it means a doctor's appointment. Didn't you say Tylenol PM worked for you? I take just 1/2 a tablet to take the edge of some nights... maybe that would help you without making you too drowsy in the morning?

Today I had a 2-hour (!) appointment with the neurologist who read my sleep study... Actually, first I met with a sleep research fellow, then the neurologist. At one point, there were three docs listening to me. (Ironically, I had ZERO sleep last night because of a family problem...but enough about that--I was just weepy and exhausted.)

Insomnia appears to be the biggest issue for me. They gave me several handouts of instructions on sleep hygiene and relaxation response techniques. I was instructed to do this (and Jess, maybe this will help you?): one hour before bed, write for ten minutes everything that's going through your mind. Write down some possible solutions to whatever problems you're weighing. (for you that might mean making an action item list for the next day.) Tell yourself that you won't think about any of those things until tomorrow--and then force yourself not to! When you return in thought to the things you wrote, tell yourself to stop, and then focus your attention on an image, an activity--gardening, the beach, some soothing and relaxing activity. She said to stick to a calming and soothing wind down routine. Once in bed, don't think about sleep or what will happen if you don't sleep.

I've got a couple pages here of additional great sleep hygiene instructions--maybe when I'm less exhausted I'll type em up for everyone on a separate post.

The doctors were very intrigued by my POTS situation, which we talked about at length (daytime symptoms, nighttime symptoms etc) -- and the cool thing is, she wants to "study" me ... I think it would involve spending a weekend at the hospital getting my sleep monitored (2 nights) and going through every other autonomic test I've not yet had (1 day) -- and then for three months (or more?), I'll be trained in kriya yoga meditation. Then they'll repeat all the tests and see if that made a difference. The doc really made a strong pitch for it, telling me that if/when the study is published, I could really do a lot of good for other POTS patients (and didn't that make me feel great--and motivated! )

I'll probably do it--I think being able to relax and meditate would in fact do me a world of good. The question is when...

I've gotta catch a nap now!

later,

m

[ethansmom]

Everyone's suggestions have been so helpful. I went to my PCP today to discuss some back problems I've been having and I brought up the sleep issues. This doc refused to prescribe Ambien or anything else, but seemed to think that I could "train" myself to sleep better by sticking to a strict schedule (like 10pm-7am) and NOT watching TV or reading in bed before sleep time- something I have been doing EVERY night to try and wind down, but I have noticed myself that the longer I lay there and watch TV, the longer it takes me to fall asleep...I wonder why?

Anyhow my plan is to go to bed by 10 and try to relax and sleep all night...try not to think about sleep (or lack thereof) and I have been wearing myself out during the day and not napping...so I am going to keep that up and see what happens. Wish me luck, as we get through this stressful move...I am very excited to be living in Florida soon

[opus88]

Hi, Jessica!

You asked why it takes longer for you to fall asleep if winding down by watching TV. It's because our brains respond to movements on TV in the same way we respond to real movement. We perceive the quick movements, sudden noises and color/lighting changes as potential dangers; therefore our brains are constantly preparing us for either fight or flight. Since we do not have an outlet to respond to that physical reaction while watching TV, stress (think catecholamines, adrenaline, etc.) builds and can even spill over into everyday life. Even with our eyes closed, the flickering lighting, changing sound, etc., from the TV keeps our brains alert for danger, which of course keeps us from falling asleep.

There is more to it than what I mentioned above, but think about what just those flickering images do to children's developing brains. We are setting our children up for tremendous stress at a very young age just by allowing them to watch TV for more than a few minutes a day - no matter how "educational" the programs may be.

[blackwolf]

Dear Jessica, for three months I've been trying to meditate before sleeping. I do feel more relaxed and I feel alittle better, but I'm still taking a long time to get to sleep. It is slowwly getting better, and I'm starting to sleep before 6 am. For over a year, I've been typing in a journal on my computer, I never save it unless it relates to my health. However the chose is up to you, I get a lot done, even designed a new quilt for my sister to make.

Sleep well, Blackwolf