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Suprachiasmatic Nucleus=Timer?


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Guest 12StringANSGuitar

I was reading a bit tonight and wondered if I'm understanding something correctly(material is a bit heavy).

Does current theory on why the majority of cases of a dysautonomia developing have to do with dis-regulation/disfunction of this thing they call the 'suprachiasmatic nucleus' in the Hypothalamus?

They speak about maintaining 'homeostasis'(internal equilibrium of the organism), and connect this to the function of the Hypothalamus's timing mechanism.

Anyway, I'm reading this because I am still exploring a theory that I posited months back(before I went astray- and I do apologize;; this does greatly interest me for a number of reasons), and I have some additional ideas that I need to run past someone who can explain some of the science behind this to me....in laymans terms.

I really feel that I have something that may be of value to this discussion, so I hope I can be put in touch with someone who will consider some recent thoughts of mine on how gravity bears on the autonomic nervous system.

*Also, have there been any experiments done with light in order to try to re-regulate the A.N.S.??

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Guest 12StringANSGuitar
Hi,

Can you explain more about this theory?

I'll put it this way.

If the Moderators will not give me the courtesy of a response, or if someone connected with this research will not jump into this thread, I go no further.

Before my paranoid comments a few months ago, I told the members here that I was trying to connect the unique aspect of zero gravity effects, and its tie in with the A.N.S., with a theory that I have with regard to Relativity Theory.

I don't drink booze anymore, and my thinking has become more focused(though I also get this brain fog thing- too often for my liking). I'm very serious about many things, and I'm trying to convey an idea, but I need help to do it.

I also suffer from a neurological problem which is probably a dysautonomia, and there is someone on this site who directed me here because they recognized certain health issues of mine that paralleled that of those with these type problems.

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You seem to be under the impression that the admins and mods have more power here than they really do. There are only three of us: Me, Michelle (the site owner), and Melissa (aka Sunfish). I don't quite get your tone--perhaps I'm misinterpeting here, but it seems like you were miffed that a moderator hadn't replied in your thread yet. Personally, I've never read any articles about the topic you're asking about. We don't personally reply to all posts--only to ones where we have useful info to share. Obviously from the lack of our replies to you, none of the three of us has background or information in the area you're inquiring about.

Just to clarify: DINET does not, itself, do any research: we provide information and support service, that is provided for free by volunteers. We're just folks with dysautonomia, like the most of our members. If people here have info to share, they share it...moderators included. Not everyone reads at the same pace, so please expect that it may take a few days for members to sift through posts and figure out if they have something helpful to add.

Nina

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I am very interessted in the info you found. Do you have a link? I am a nurse and used to doing research so i may be able to put it into lymans terms.

I find the moderators here quite helpful when it comes to info they know about that is relevat to the post.

I personally like when people post theories, they are fun to explore.

Thanks

Janine

and ps, there is not one of us here who do not get a little freaked out sometimes.

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I am not sure about the specifics of what YOU are looking for but the study of H-P-A Axis and CFS (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal Axis as cause of Chronic fatigue syndrome) problems have been documented since the early 1990's.

I used to read the CFIDS Chronicle and this was often discussed. Many groups of CFS also have dsyautonomia which would tie into your question. That area of the brain also controls circadium rhythms.

The Hypothalamus is indeed responsible for homeostasis of the body as are the other glands in regulating the body. This stuff is way over MY head to get into a discussion about and my foggy brain has long since forgotten the details of said subject. I read about this many times and I know you can find a BOATLOAD of info about this online but not sure what YOU are hunting for.

That said, are you referring to a certain ARTICLE? What was the search that led you do the Suprachiasmatic Nucleus? Maybe one of the medically oriented folks here can direct you and the rest of us if we think it is pertinent to individual cases.

For the most part there are many 'theories' and depending on the doctor and researcher, different answers/arguments in days gone by. Kind of like dysautonomia schools of different research. Dr. Grubb told me it was like trying to convert folks to a different religion. Some ANS docs have THEIR theory and are often not open to new things. I am open to new things if there is a CONCRETE CONNECTION and FIX to my case.

So that's my two cents worth. Perhaps a more medical savvy, multi-syllabled person can help.

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Guest 12StringANSGuitar
I am not sure about the specifics of what YOU are looking for but the study of H-P-A Axis and CFS (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal Axis as cause of Chronic fatigue syndrome) problems have been documented since the early 1990's.

I used to read the CFIDS Chronicle and this was often discussed. Many groups of CFS also have dsyautonomia which would tie into your question. That area of the brain also controls circadium rhythms.

The Hypothalamus is indeed responsible for homeostasis of the body as are the other glands in regulating the body. This stuff is way over MY head to get into a discussion about and my foggy brain has long since forgotten the details of said subject. I read about this many times and I know you can find a BOATLOAD of info about this online but not sure what YOU are hunting for.

That said, are you referring to a certain ARTICLE? What was the search that led you do the Suprachiasmatic Nucleus? Maybe one of the medically oriented folks here can direct you and the rest of us if we think it is pertinent to individual cases.

For the most part there are many 'theories' and depending on the doctor and researcher, different answers/arguments in days gone by. Kind of like dysautonomia schools of different research. Dr. Grubb told me it was like trying to convert folks to a different religion. Some ANS docs have THEIR theory and are often not open to new things. I am open to new things if there is a CONCRETE CONNECTION and FIX to my case.

So that's my two cents worth. Perhaps a more medical savvy, multi-syllabled person can help.

Thankyou Sophia-3(and the other respondents),

First. I get this BrainFog alot. The last few days have been especially stressful, and I've had like BrainFog on steroids, and thats part of why I didn't respond. If I'm going to talk this serious matter at all, I want to be focused as best as possible, and I've not 'had it' of late.

My thinking months back was that I had felt that there was a strong tie between the mysteries of our neurological processes' and the mysteries surrounding gravity's place in General Relativity Theory.

I don't even know the specific defintions of these disciplines, but it is more than just 'feeling' that tells me that there is this tie between the two. In fact, its logical to think our inner-nature = our external reality.

The comment I made months back was that I felt that we needed to focus on a philosophy of what our 'being' was in order to more quickly come to an understanding of how our neurological function operated, and also how the basic constants of the universe related;; and how each was a 'reflection' of the other.

Anything within us, is 'of' the universe; there is no seperation; all is One-ness. The Laws that effect the Universe, are those which govern all within it.

In my opinion, the most irreducible unit log which governs or regulates all things known, is 'interval'

Everything is involved in 'process', and process has interval.

*I am not focused, so I hope this makes some sense. I'm like in my 40th percentile of thinking right now, so I will try to spruce this up sometime in the future.

The important thing is that everything is being Clocked or is being Timed at an interval that supports the timing or Harmony(essential Order) of all events which occur.

Past, Present, Future = the stages of Energetics, which is the essential process of which Thermo-Dynamics speaks.

We are energy in motion. We are 'process' as much as the universe. Our bodies are in energetic motion.

The nature of everything is truly of a timing phenomena.

The Observor and the Observed are a Time Construct.....and Energetics its process.

What I am looking for is the origin of this thing I call the 'interval log'. That is what I believe is the governor or regulator of all Timing's Process.

I think Light's Symmetry Nature, is telling us that it is possibly the closest things to what this Governor(Tuner) of the Interval is, and that is because Symmetry is recognized as that which demonstrates True Order. So the answer would have to be within what 'Causes Symmetry'.

Symmetry is the Origin of all Timing!!!

Somehow, I think Light Therapy could re-train the A.N.S. But it is how this is utilized. That is something that I can't figure, and probably won't be able to.....for I lack the knowedge.

*I'm really lost in my thoughts right now. Reminds me of a line out of The Minds Eye book, when they speak of Riddle Coma :) . Its like the closer you get to the ultimate truth of things, you're mind suffers a paradox, and it jams- the brain locks up.

Well, I'm jamming at the moment.

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Guest 12StringANSGuitar
You seem to be under the impression that the admins and mods have more power here than they really do. There are only three of us: Me, Michelle (the site owner), and Melissa (aka Sunfish). I don't quite get your tone--perhaps I'm misinterpeting here, but it seems like you were miffed that a moderator hadn't replied in your thread yet. Personally, I've never read any articles about the topic you're asking about. We don't personally reply to all posts--only to ones where we have useful info to share. Obviously from the lack of our replies to you, none of the three of us has background or information in the area you're inquiring about.

Just to clarify: DINET does not, itself, do any research: we provide information and support service, that is provided for free by volunteers. We're just folks with dysautonomia, like the most of our members. If people here have info to share, they share it...moderators included. Not everyone reads at the same pace, so please expect that it may take a few days for members to sift through posts and figure out if they have something helpful to add.

Nina

Nina,

I strongly believe that each of us must investigate for ourselves, and not rely soley on that of our research community to cure us- or even provide all answers.

The boards here are excellent in the capacity they serve for support thru sharing of personal experience, but it defers solutions to those outside this boards membership.

As critical as this malady is(it is part of frontier science- a most critical part), I think we need someone with a Doctorate in this area to help out and be constantly involved to answer our questions.

I am probably not the person who will 'solve' the mystery, but the chance that someone happens along with a totally different view that the science community didn't fathom is possible.

Chance is real, and if that person with the answer happens to visit your message board once, and no one is there to hear their thought(almost like the zen koan), then we will never know if what seemed to be the whackiest of thinking, may have been the solution.

I will repeat what I said before. "no understanding of what our nature is(or the universe), than the answer to both this(A.N.S.), and Relativity's Timing, will be a much longer way off in providing a definitive answer to.

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12string

I realize I have HORRIBLE brain fog due to lack of blood flow and am sick due to the 'time of month' female thing, but I could not make a lick of sense out of what you posted?! :):ph34r:

Also, in your post to Nina, I hardly think a person with a doctorate can answer questions on a message board. This site is quite busy and many folks may stumble upon this place to read information. But to expect somebody to just be 'on standby' to answer questions would be great, but unrealistic imo!! If that is not what you meant then just forget about that statment. I am having such difficulty comprehending maybe I shouldn't even be posting today. LOL.

It's great to have the few message boards online that there are to ask ANS questions. But most of us can't get a return phone call from our real docs office in a timely manner...let alone some doctor volunteering for a message board.

Not tryiing to sound snotty but I think this place has plenty of VALUABLE folks to respond. or places to direct us to..... Sometimes those of us WITH this illness know more about it than the doctors who are book smart.

As much as we would like a cure, it is far off in the future or not happening for those of us disabled for 16 years! I like to be hopeful but at this point am just realistic and cope with a chronic illness.

While it's certainly ok to ponder or extrapolate, most of this conversation is over my head! Yikes.

Just my two cents.

Peace

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We do have medical advisors to DINET. however, we do not have access to one on a full time, volunteer basis for the forum. A f/t doctorate level moderator for medical type questions is highly unlikely--there are medical ethics involved in answering medical questions without ever examining the patient... and if you read the forum rules, members here are barred from giving medical advice. Also, most of the ANS specialists are very very busy seeing patients.

Doctorate level folks with knowledge of the ANS (MD or Ph.D.) is a small population of people indeed. If you want someone like that to ask questions of, that's what one goes to the doctor's office for, or contacts a specialist directly for... It's not a service offered by a support forum, and is HIGHLY unlikely that it will be ever offered here.

You should also be aware that there are probably MANY paths to the same constellation of symptoms. We already know that familial dysautonomia & ehlers-danlos are two genetic variants that lead to ANS disturbance...but we also know that for some, viral infection sets POTS/NCS into motion, and for others, it's bacterial, such as lyme or other tick bourne illness. So, there may be multiple vectors that disrupt the ANS, multiple genetic variants, etc. One, singular answer to the question "why" is unlikely.

While I am all for looking inward (as a practicing buddhist, it's part of who I am), I have noticed you often have very technical questions that pretty much no one here can answer for you. Might I suggest you contact an autonomic specialist directly?

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Guest 12StringANSGuitar
12string

I realize I have HORRIBLE brain fog due to lack of blood flow and am sick due to the 'time of month' female thing, but I could not make a lick of sense out of what you posted?! :):ph34r:

Also, in your post to Nina, I hardly think a person with a doctorate can answer questions on a message board. This site is quite busy and many folks may stumble upon this place to read information. But to expect somebody to just be 'on standby' to answer questions would be great, but unrealistic imo!! If that is not what you meant then just forget about that statment. I am having such difficulty comprehending maybe I shouldn't even be posting today. LOL.

It's great to have the few message boards online that there are to ask ANS questions. But most of us can't get a return phone call from our real docs office in a timely manner...let alone some doctor volunteering for a message board.

Not tryiing to sound snotty but I think this place has plenty of VALUABLE folks to respond. or places to direct us to..... Sometimes those of us WITH this illness know more about it than the doctors who are book smart.

As much as we would like a cure, it is far off in the future or not happening for those of us disabled for 16 years! I like to be hopeful but at this point am just realistic and cope with a chronic illness.

While it's certainly ok to ponder or extrapolate, most of this conversation is over my head! Yikes.

Just my two cents.

Peace

I'm sorry. I'm not being as clear as I could be.

Even my last comment to Nina was written wrong. I mean "without a clear understanding of our nature".

Also, you emphasize VALUABLE folks here. I have not said anything negative to the members dynamics, I only think someone with a PHD in this area would be helpful. Truthfully(because I think a few science disciplilnes are linked in the equation), I feel at minimum, someone with a physics background would be helpful.

And yes you are correct that those who live it may very well know more than the book smart doctors.

As to my comments making sense, well its embarrassing for me to 'risk' a theory based in abstract reasoning. I guess some might think it schizophrenic possibly, but my intentions are honest, and I really think there is this connection I speak about.

Those who read some of my earliest comments(and the psuedo I chose for myself), may remember that it was the unique connection to gravity's effect upon astronauts A.N.S., and the fact that those with these dysautonomias offer an extra-ordinary chance and research tool to investigate matters that are expected to effect astronauts during long term space flight in zero gravity, that greatly effected my thinking that the Blind Spot in General Relativity's understanding of Gravity, and the Blind Spot in Neurological Science(the autonomic nervous system), were connected; the solve for one would offer the solve to the other.

*if it weren't a blind spot, it would not be an issue.

I said on a physics site that Gravity was the 'constant regulator and observor' of Space and Time.

That didn't go over to well. Neither did my comments on what I believe true Time to be.

Even I get mixed up while thinking this. .....especially on a 'bad brain' day like today- I truly don't feel well.

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Guest 12StringANSGuitar
1.Doctorate level folks with knowledge of the ANS (MD or Ph.D.) is a small population of people indeed.

2.You should also be aware that there are probably MANY paths to the same constellation of symptoms. We already know that familial dysautonomia & ehlers-danlos are two genetic variants that lead to ANS disturbance...but we also know that for some, viral infection sets POTS/NCS into motion, and for others, it's bacterial, such as lyme or other tick bourne illness. So, there may be multiple vectors that disrupt the ANS, multiple genetic variants, etc. One, singular answer to the question "why" is unlikely.

3.While I am all for looking inward (as a practicing buddhist, it's part of who I am), I have noticed you often have very technical questions that pretty much no one here can answer for you. Might I suggest you contact an autonomic specialist directly?

1.This is something the member who introduced me here had told me early on, and it is a shame that what

I'm certain is the 'most key' system next to our D.N.A. coding, doesn't have more specialists focusing in

on this.

I even had a short debate with that member(and some outside this board), as to whether D.N.A.'s code

preceeds the function of the A.N.S., or as I believe, the A.N.S. is what 'allows' D.N.A.'s code to function

in the first place the way its supposed to.

*Its like, if the 'time interval' is off, nothing will work properly.

2.I agree wholly. But at the root, the Timing mechanism has been disrupted, and I think it can be re-

established if we ask the right questions, which yield the right answers.

3.I am not certain how technical I am being. I know I'm outside the box to the point that this guy :huh:

seems the guide to my thinking for others reading me. Like I said, I'm offering an idea, and this isn't the

most easy thing when I open myself up for others to poke fun of(which has happened elsewhere).

You guys have been much kinder than any other website I've been on for that matter....no one has used

derogatory terms to me here.

You are Buddhist. I would venture that someone with the perspective of either Buddhism or Hinduism, combined with a background in General Relativity and Sacred Geometry(I left this part out earlier), would have a better chance in putting the bigger picture together which would explain things.

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From my perspective, my ans dysfuntion is just what it is. It's "my" normal. I am. You are.... or as buddhist philosophy would tell me, I am not...

and you are not... as the contemplation of the great emptiness, the attachment to nothing is considered the most sacred from this philosophical perspective... hence I don't often ponder "why?".

As for the doctorate, mine will not be in ANS functioning, but in the study of human behavior. I'm about a year to a year and a half from my degree. I still think that you might fare better asking a specialist directly--some are open to email conversation, others are not.

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I'd like to comment, but I believe my different language button is on. I'm totally lost.

The only thing that rings a bell with me is, Dr. Robertson did a study of astronauts, because they develop short term autonomic dusfunction after being weightless in space. You may want to look that up, google it or something under Robertson and NASA. But I have no real idea if this is what you are talking about.

My philosophy is I just have it. Sometimes I think why me and sometimes I think why not me. It just is...morgan

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Morgan

Is this the article you were talking about?

http://www.spaceref.com:16080/news/viewpr.html?pid=8161

I posted a similar one a few months ago but the link no longer works. This has Dr. R in it.

I am, therefore, I is.

Be here now.

Sometimes not knowing is the best place to be.

(not that I agree with THIS platitude or whatever it's called! LOL)

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I like these "deep debates" I posted in the general chat forum the question Where has POTS taken you spiritually and also I posted on "The Cycle". I like to know about "different" theories. I was thinking of doing or asking for a "spiritual" forum. Where we can share more holistic approaches and discuss our spirituality with out fear of being attacked for our beliefs. I think we can learn from eachother.

I dunno.

Peace

Janine

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Guest Julia59

12string,

I don't really understand what you are discussing here as it is way over my head also, but I do know about the astronaut study Dr. Robertson participated in. However, I'm a bit of a science nerd, and I like to read anything that may help bring us closer to the answer.

Like Nina mentioned---there can be so many different causes, triggers. ANS dysfunction can also be secondary to many things such as diabetes, parkinsons disease, thyroid disease, chiari malformation/or chiari related conditions, upper spine compression ect. In cases such as these, one might be lucky, and if the primary disease/disorder is corrected/or controlled, so may the ANS dysfunction.

But anything is worth investigating, especially in cases of dysautonomia that is not secondary to something else. I often wonder if "primary" dysautonomia has something to do with the environment------meaning sudden onset for people who are not born with it---such as familial dysautonomia.

I sure know that my body hates gravity----the longer i'm up the worse I get. Stairs are the worst......

Julie :0)

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Guest 12StringANSGuitar
I'd like to comment, but I believe my different language button is on. I'm totally lost.

The only thing that rings a bell with me is, Dr. Robertson did a study of astronauts, because they develop short term autonomic dusfunction after being weightless in space. You may want to look that up, google it or something under Robertson and NASA. But I have no real idea if this is what you are talking about.

My philosophy is I just have it. Sometimes I think why me and sometimes I think why not me. It just is...morgan

Months back I was given a link by a member or two here to the neuro-space lab research center at Vanderbilt University.

This is a critical area of study, and is part of what I call frontier science. If you put a pyramid of things that are being researched, and the monies going into them, you will find near the top tier what I mentioned before about gravity, space flight, and the effect upon the A.N.S.

Co-Equals on this tier would also include investigations regading D.N.A. and Neurological items.

The fact is that all these are parallel issues which bear upon each other; and all have to do with our essence of being. Each can be seen better thru the lens of the other.

The factor of space flight's presence in this equation, offers an unique insight to the biology of all things, and obviously tells us that physics exploration of General Relativity(of which all things obey its known laws and are thought to obey its theories too), are linked together.

The proof? We are here, and not there(per se). Our position and identity(function) is linked to our Time and Gravity.

*another bad day for me. I actually had it in my grasp, and before I could write it down, the connection was gone. I hate this, but it will come back.

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I think the standard answer to why astronauts get pots is that their systems atrophy due to the lack of gravity. However, I think you have a very interesting theory and it would be worth investigation. I am assuming you are talking about the part of Einstein's theory that says the closer an object gets to the speed of light the slower time is for that object. Some physics websites have little calculators telling how long a trip to a distant star will take for you and how many thousands of years in the future it would actually be on earth when you return if you were traveling near the speed of light. There have been experiments with aircraft and space flights if I remember that have backed this up. Even though we are only talking a few microseconds difference between earth and space time it could be enough to throw something off. Kind of like if you land in a time zone an hour ahead of your own and you do not reset your watch; you would be late for everything until you get with the local time. Maybe that is what happens with the astronauts, time slows for them and they have to catch up with the rest of us when they get back. This would assume that there are different levels or frequencies our bodies interact with time. An example would be running your finger down a guitar string as it vibrates which makes it give sliding sound (don't know what the actual term is called. If you do that with 2 guitars and one string is slightly behind the other they will not sound the same. How this effects the majority of us who have not gone to space, I don't know but It would be interesting to compare us with the astronauts. I am just have a BA in history so I don't know if there is anything in the science fields that would make all this credible. Probably there is something out there that could be measured which would answer our questions but we do not know to measure it or have the tools to measure it yet. Brain fog is the pits isn't it.

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Guest 12StringANSGuitar

I'll direct you to an old Scientific American from september 2002; special issue on A Matter of Time.

The specific article is by Karen Wright, and called Times of Our Lives.

I personally need some time to have my thoughts clear.

I will repeat though. What we call 'gravity' has direct bearing upon the timing and order of all events.

It doesn't matter if we talk general relativity or what goes on in our bodies.

Gravity rules all, clocks all, orders all.

I'm not letting up here, or on a physics web board that I am earnestly trying to be taken seriously.

I will make a clear concise pronouncement on this at some point.

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Guest 12StringANSGuitar
1.I like to read anything that may help bring us closer to the answer.

2.there can be so many different causes, triggers.

ANS dysfunction can also be secondary to many things such as diabetes, parkinsons disease, thyroid disease, chiari malformation/or chiari related conditions, upper spine compression ect. In cases such as these, one might be lucky, and if the primary disease/disorder is corrected/or controlled, so may the ANS dysfunction.

3.I often wonder if "primary" dysautonomia has something to do with the environment------meaning sudden onset for people who are not born with it---such as familial dysautonomia.

Hi Julia59,

1.100% in agreement on that. I'm a collectivist in many ways, and sharing ideas/theories is important.

I truly hope everyone capable who is afflicted with this, is exploring on their own, and not relying on

strictly pills from a doctor to cure them. They're boxed in by their discipline, so I'm a big believer in

alternative therapy, and obviously, I'm researching myself(though slow).

*As I said a few times, there's an interesection of key areas of science involved here(as I see it), and all of this literally has me awed. I'm also hoping that something within this 'tie', may help me help my mother

out with her issue(early dementia).

2.I understand that perfectly. Still, it all comes down to this 'clocking'(in all the things you mention).

Did anyone try the link I offered? If you can read that whole Sept. 2002 edition, that would be good, but

specifically the one article.

3.Again, the 'clock'(timing), is affected.

!The goal(even with the meds and therapy), is to re-establish the synchronous timing of things.

O.K., that is a basic and simplistic statement, but its true.

This idea I have, incorporates thoughts on using a specific type of Light, in a controlled environment involving a paticular motion(based upon rotation of space in orbits).

I haven't this all worked out, but the 'motion' idea, is based on a gyro-scopic principle of balance(harmony), and Time comes into being from Observaton of the 'Observed to the Observor'(the nature of all bio-clocks, and all that occurs in Space too).

Symbolically and Metaphorically, this would indicate that our nature(being), is created(and consciousness arises), by the means of our passage thru Space's Orbit....This sets our Clock(per se)!!

I really believe our internal clocks can be re-trained, re-oriented- Timed the way they were meant to be.

*I'm functioning alot better today(good brain day- not my best, but good!),,, so if this doesn't grasp anyone's imagination(or make any sense), then I've got little else that will.

I say that, because whatever I come up with next(when I'm more focused), will probably only appear more strange.

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Astronauts do have POTS. We went to Kennedy Space Center over Christmas and on the tour they showed us the building to which they are transported after they return to earth. The door to the thing is a garage door about 10 feet from the ground. We paid for the expensive tour, so we had an engineer as our guide. He said that the door was high, because the astronauts cannot sit up when they return to earth and the door is so that they can be wheeled on the gurney directly into the medical building.

He said they cannot sit up because of severe syncope and an inability to maintain blood pressure and a tendancy towards tachycardia. He then said that after a few days of therapy, they are ready for earth's gravity again.

Let me tell you folks. I felt very twisted up inside. I think they know. I know they know.

That building holds the keys that we are all searching for. Maybe they can only fix ones who have short term POTS, but they know something about something. I still feel like my heart is in my shoes and I don't know how to think or feel.

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