World's Fastest Diagnosis

[lthomas521]

I was talking to an M.D. who is running for local office. He was trained in India, and he said that Indian-trained physicians have an advantage over U.S. trained physicians. He said that they read the same textbooks, but because they didn't always have access to expensive tests and equipment, they learned to do a really careful physical examination. He said, "We can tell all sorts of things about a patient, just by taking their pulse."

That sounded like a sports challenge to me. I'd been standing for a few minutes, so I said, "What does my pulse tell you?" and I held out my arm.

He put his fingers on my wrist for a few seconds and said, "You have low blood volume--and tachycardia!"

[MomtoGiuliana]

That is really interesting!

[Sophia3]

This sounds like a fast food version of Ayurvedic medicine that tells a lot by one's tongue and pulse. I saw a doc that gave up traditional medicine to practice this. It was very expensive but my office visit was covered because he was an MD. This was pre TTT and ANS issues addressed.

He had me massage head to toe, sesame massage oil (WANTED me to put in on my scalp but have baby fine hair, no way) He had me eating certain ways and after a few months, NOTHING. So, I dunno. He was from India.

I have read in OI articles that tachycardia and narrow pulse pressues can also mean hypovolemia.

Interesting though, this doc said that to you if he knew nothing about you. Here is a blurb about the dosha type and pulse.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

6. How does an Ayurvedic practitioner decide on a person's dosha balance?

Practitioners seek to determine the primary dosha and the balance of doshas through questions that allow them to become very familiar with the patient. Not all questions have to do with particular symptoms. The practitioner will:

* Ask about diet, behavior, lifestyle practices, and the reasons for the most recent illness and symptoms the patient had

* Carefully observe such physical characteristics as teeth, skin, eyes, and weight

* Take a person's pulse, because each dosha is thought to make a particular kind of pulse

[Mrs. Burschman]

Fast -- and free, too! Sounds like a deal!

Amy

[lthomas521]

He's not an "alternative" practitioner at all. He's an epidemiologist. :-)

[Sophia3]

Sounds like an INTERESTING doctor to know.

The Auyervedic doc I saw WAS a general surgeon for decades and even did surgery on me once. But before that, he had become very ill and in the doctor community (My brother in law, a doc/surgeon was still alive) this doctor was rumored to be dying. He was in wheelchair on tube feedings and believed his old India medicinal ways of alternative health fixed him. He waited YEARS to jump on the bandwagon when Deepak Chopra became popular.

I went to his house for a meditational weekened (Lady from Deepaks place) and my ex doc had pics of him with Dr. Weil and had gone to med school with Chopra. Still, the fact some of his stuff was SO EXPENSIVE offended me because in India, TRUE AYURVEDIC medicine is available to the poorest of people.

So, I dunno. I gave it a shot and the food was a hassle but I had more energy to cook back then...not to mention shower after the self massage of sesame oil. Ug. Could not do that today for anything.

That doc has sensed left the area. Wonder where he ended up?

It would be nice if one could be a paitent of that doctor, lthomas, but I take it he just studies outbreaks of illness?

Still, it was fascinating for him to come up with that in a heartbeat! LOL. Pun intended.

[JenniferInOhio]

Interesting. I love to hear smart doctor stories!

[Ernie]

Hi,

In which State is this doctor practicing? Do you know if he can treat POTS and NCS?

[ajw4790]

That is very interesting! Kinda makes you wish all drs. were so observant and focused on details, and not just getting on to their next patient!

[Sophia3]

It also shows how GOOD OLD fashioned common sense and LISTENING to the body can tell you as much as HIGH TECH TESTS that often tell us nothing and leave us with sky high bills!!

For instance, for many of us, a poor man's tilt table test can dx POTS INSTANTLY.

I think it's great you met such an astute doc, Lthomas.

[runningshoe]

I think there was a nova special on alternative medicine and they featured drs that could diagnose you from your pulse, or by looking at your urine. I believe they were from India. I think it is fascinating. I went to an energy healer who knew nothing about me and yet she was able to tell a lot about my multiple health problems by reading my energy. Pretty cool!

[Lukkychrm42]

That is pretty cool! It is so disturbing when you meet with a doctor who barely listens to you, hardly looks at you, and says you're perfectly fine but then sends you off for half a dozen tests. And of course the ones who dismiss what you say by telling you it's either in your head or you're making a big deal out of nothing don't look at the vitals the nurse took, much less examine you themselves.

In my visits in the UK so far, the only physical examination consisted of looking at my injured knee, for obvious reasons, and otherwise it's only involved talk. (Though they have seemed to listen to me, for the most part.) Of course there are plenty of American doctors who still ignore you while looking at your ears and eyes!

I was reading somewhere about some people who would diagnose illnesses by tasting the patient's urine... don't know about that!!!

[yogini]

That's very cool. If he is running for office, it sounds like he deserves your vote!

By the way, most doctors from/in India are NOT alternative or ayuervedic docs. They probably just rely on more basic ways of diagnosing things since they don't have as much access to high tech machinery.

[Sushi]

Hi,

I too have had absolutely spot-on diagnoses from several Ayurvediic doctors, both in India and the US. They mainly checked the pulses. Trouble was the remedies they gave me didn't help!

[MNsue]

Interesting. The Dr. that encouraged me to have a tilt test was a MD trained in Ayurvedic Medicine. This was after 16 years with no answers.

Rhonda

[Sophia3]

My Aurevedic doc said over stimulated nervous system and NEVER EVER mentioned the gravity issues.

KEY MISSING POINT.

If being upright messes with the systems, the old fashioned remedies to 'sooth nerves' ain't gonna work imo. I certainly tried though.

[Eli6596]

I don't think it is so hard to say that someone has tachycardia and low blood volume from simply taking a pulse. I think that it is well known that a weak, difficult to feel pulse can indicate dehydration or low blood volume. It is easy to diagnose tachycardia just by feeling the pulse at more than 100.

K.

[morgan617]

I agree K., It's pretty much nursing 101, that if someone stands and gets tachy, they are dehydrated and/or have a low volume.

I would have been far more impressed if he had said, "and it's caused by this and that, and this is how it's fixed." And it worked.....It's called orthostatic checks and I did them a million times. I once had someone look in my eyes and tell me I was full of poo....most of the time I don't need anyone to look at my eyes to tell me that....

[yogini]

Come to think of it, when I first went to my PCP the very day after getting POTS, he told me that I was dehydrated and my issue was BP/heart related. This was based upon my complaint of severe dizziness. He referred me to a cardiologist and it took me a few weeks to get the appointments and testing. But my PCP was pretty much right from day one, which probably gives me one of the fastest diagnoses on the forum. And my PCP is no Einstein, just average. And getting a fast diagnosis doesn't matter much when the docs have no idea how to treat you!

[JenniferInOhio]

Too bad some doctors don't know about Nursing 101 . Mine didn't know about Nursing 101, she only knew about Psych. 101

[Mrs. Burschman]

Seems like lots of doctors fancy themselves psychiatrists. My PSYCHIATRIST was the one who got me in for autonomic testing!

Amy

[Sophia3]

Well if it is NURSING 101, why so many stupid nurses and DOCTORS?? And HOSPITALS out there.

Why is there a NEED for this site and foundation! Why are we checked for THYROID, Pheos, and given holter monitors? Nobody ever THINKS of TTT though I realize, they have only been available in many hospitals for the last 20 years.

I was hospitalized in 1997 after years of CFS and a D.O. sent me to some cardiac DO who hooked me to EKG and sent me DIRECTLY to hospital. I said my heart always raced like this. He said something was "WRONG" and pointed out some T wave thing and got all dramatic!!

Everytime I got out of bed the nurses all SCREAMED at my HR so high on the monitor. I was told NOT to stand or get out of bed but refused to use the bed pan as I felt strong enough to get up. Wow..if only I had known about Orthostatic Intolerance and POTS back THEN.

Also when I bent over the sink to wash my hair while hooked up to all these electrodes, after the next morning, the nurses nearly broke down the bathroom door yelling as bending over....

sent my HR HIGHER!

I was treated like a freak and not ONE BABOON there could draw my blood. They finally had to call in some special guy to do it. Oh, and they asked if I ever did Cocaine. SAY WHAT!?

Nobody EVER mentioned hypovolemia, and I had saline IV the whole time and an echocardiogram.....but the DO, on a follow up visit at his office, did mention a shrink for anxiety...the ONLY time I was told to see a shrink for my "tachycardia". He ordered NO TILT. AND told me the CT SCAN did not work because "I moved" too much "or" the machine broke. uh, it's called TREMORS doc and adrenalin surges but back then, I HAD NO CLUE EITHER. It was shortly after this time I discovered NDRF AND saw the DATELINE show that did a segment on DYSAUTONOMIA! If only DATELINE would've done a follow up.

Also many say 'nerves cause tachy' (anybody here been told that one? ) but I have never had the gift of a doc saying HYPOVOLEMIC!! while checking my pulse! Not even Dr. Grubb..I had to discuss the issue with him and what I had read. Grubb told me there are many tests to rule that out (and apparently arguments over the MOST EXACT test) but NARROW pulse pressures 'can' be a big clue and have nothing to do with normal dehydration. We can DRINK our selves nuts but still be low in blood volume...drinking only 'aids' to help pump it up. This is sadly so complicated.

I know the nurses in my ANS docs office often "MISS" half my pulse...my doc has just come to expect it and double check things himself.

That was a HORRIBLE hospital experience and I will never trust a D.O. OR their hospitals agaiin. I had bruises on my forearms for WEEKS and looked like a heroin addict. Never before or since has ANYBODY had problems drawing my blood to THAT degree. The only good thing was there was a woods outside my window and I saw a deer! LOL They even had some nurses aid try to draw my blood???

sorry, but this tachycardia is "so simple" to dx touched a nerve on this topic.

Gee, Sof, ya THINK???

(Sof runs out of the room after her diatribe against the medical community)

THANK GOODNESS for sites like this where we are able to feel normal with the freaky BP and HR stuff we just learn to tolerate.

P.S. A therapist told me to find a new doc and INVESTIGATE hormonal things and that led to a TTT.

[Sophia3]

p.s. I had a laparascopic hysterectomy last november and had DARLING NURSES and staff at the hospital overnight. I was determined not to spend the night as the surgeon gave me the option but my bladder wouldn't empty and I got queasy after eating.

THANKFULLY all the nurses treated me like a QUEEN. You woulda thought my doc gave them special orders but I got lucky...and most of his pts at this hospital are treated well.

I hated this hospital as my mom used to work there as did my late brother in law (doc/surgeon) so I did not have the best mindset GOING IN but am thrilled it was a positive experience. Nurses and their TONES of voices can make all the difference, you know?

[morgan617]

In most people that are normally healthy, it is nursing or doctoring 101, to have an increased heart rate and lowered BP from dehydration, low volume, whatever, caused by fluid loss, for whatever reason.

In my whole 30 years, we saw one patient that I have since realized had POTS, and she had every test known to man and was sent home after several days with the typical psych diagnosis. She saw at least 5 different specialists and not one of them had a clue. This was about 15-17 years ago. I never forgot her, because I just knew there was something physical wrong, just no clue what it was.

The majority of people, in the health field, have absolutely no idea what autonomic dysfunctions are, but do understand the basics of low fluid volume and the symptoms. Nursing or doctoring 101 is simplistic, but when you take into account, that 99.9% of their experience of people with orthostatic tachy or bp drops is with fluid loss, it's not surprising that this is what you will get as a diagnosis. As a rule, we didn't go running into rooms and terrifying patients when their rates jumped up, unless it was V-Tach, and then they were usually not responsive.

As time goes by and hopefully more comes out on this, my hope is, the medical community will not jump to conclusions that it's just a matter of low volume. In paradise, all doctors would know what to do and get beyond the basics, and they have far more training than nurses. Until then, it will mostly remain a matter of 101. I saw a nephrologist that said my body had low volume, even though the tests he did, didn't show it. But refused to write notes to that effect. He was worried what his peers would think of it. Jennifer, I've had more than one doctor become an instant psychiatrist, with my therapist getting very irritated by this. She stays out of their fields and expects the same from them.

I'm not saying this condition is nursing 101, it is far more complicated, I am saying that's what almost all doctors or nurses will say the problem is, with those particular symptoms, because they have no clue what else it could be. I would guess the doctor that got this thread started with his very quick diagnosis was thinking the same thing most other doctors uninformed about OI do. And I am guessing that's what K meant and I agreed with her. This just comes from personal experience....morgan

[Sophia3]

It does continue to amaze me as I hear other stories, that even though I have been fortunate to have compassionate care, one bad doc and hospital experience PRE ANS dx was very disturbing.

He even had a resident doctor (young woman) come in and talk to me. I forget the term she used but I SAW the doctors notes from the hospital when i asked for them and she used a term for fast talking and brain fogged (you know how we get when adrenalin is spking) and had written in question marks 'bi polar' ??? I bet that one little note, out of a page of many things in tiny print.....she had notes about endocrine problems, etc

THAT speech comment ALONE got the D.O. to say I may want to consider a shrink. Well, the DO never said shrink but pointed to his own head and said I might want to talk to somebody like a therapist.

To make such a leap from an "odd t=wave" thing to POSSIBLY BI POLAR still blows me away.

And my next doc was my ANS doc who first thing, did a poor man's TTT and immediately GOT something was off when I stood up. PRICELESS!!

EDITED!! The word the resident doc snot used was "tangential speech" !!

I just remembered, lol.