Salt?

[ramakentesh]

http://m.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fhealth.usnews.com%2Fhealth-news%2Fnews%2Farticles%2F2013%2F03%2F06%2Fsalty-diet-might-help-trigger-ms-rheumatoid-arthritis&h=PAQEG2j2Y&enc=AZNq1810srV9JNQn95GEFYMK3W-vGLy43RaiXdq8CBiQhFnAKINg5K6qxkRFHzDd3dlukYcBGf0G9qIx9NmFT0H49LRaoHdeTNMhqmoT4KaA6NiIgwvv0P9-S6lJ2AXKSeW9Z6V_-lfH6GiZ7eCewbdpe1JI0eLNIclBQLglL1UnZNZlYyE29MHrmV1ZtTXiGhxk1yJ1PrtQhmbJ_QXKOL5I_UsDLnlvO5NprosU2Q7dT29KOKPHmmuDVj6rMS2L6uRPGq3kQiTxxFrsqWpYIAmuZexzkEmo0aa3Em2TwXIJPrdQgbrVMMpFX2pL-wQDwLUqj9K5KJ34C-8DpTMMI_J6&s=1

[Aimes]

Oh great! It's always something isn't it?! Thanks for sharing Rama! Very interesting article!

[issie]

I've been saying it for years ----I'm worried about the long term effects of salt and florinef. I've been questioning this approach for a long time.

Issie

[ramakentesh]

You have indeed. I knew you'd like that article

[issie]

Yes, I did like it. But, I think there is more to it then that. I've never been a heavy salt user and never started down that road ---BUT --I still have autoimmune issues. So, I think there is more to it. But, I do wonder how many POTS people are messed up worse from salt loading and taking florinef. I was as loud about what I thought --- as I could be. I was never on board with it.

Issie

[Relax86]

I literally ate salt from Jan to July trying to elevate my BP...plus I'm afraid of meds. Had been prescribed midrodine but was scared to try it. Finally sometime around mid summer I gave it a try and it did help. I was able to d/c midrodine after a period of time and my BP seemed to stabilize. One of the reasons I gave up salt and water alone is because I read someplace on the forum that without something to help you hold the salt and water then it's just running thru and or stressing your system (???). For me the midrodine was about finding the right drug for the right period of time. Funny thing is now I'm on the autoimmune road. Wondering what came first the chicken or the egg.

[ashleighheath]

note: this study doesn't specific what kind of dietary salt(s) they studied. table/iodized vs. celtic/sea, etc. all are very different. it also sounds like the sodium was part of a fast food diet. so it might not necessarily be the sodium in the salt but rather "the diet" that is causing this effect. like most so-called studies, i'd take this one with a grain of salt....

(in fact, the sugar lobby probably funded this "piece" just b/c their feelings have been hurt that the natural salt folks have been doing so well lately.)

[ashleighheath]

Relax86....your physician can do a simple urine/kidney function test to see if your kidneys are holding enough salt, etc. this will let you know whether you need any salt retention specific medications, whether you are getting adequate fluids, salts, etc.

since i was very young, i've always craved laughable amounts of salt. in fact, even before the POTS Dx, a cardiologist once told me to liberalize my sodium intake. most people aren't "that lucky" to hear that from a heart doc. i still crave salt and salty foods. olives, pickles, etc. since the POTS Dx, I have made an effort to become more knowledgable about the benefits of salt and now really love trying new sea and celtic salts.

besides a basic coarse sea salt, this is my favorite everyday salt:

http://www.saltworks.us/shop/product.asp?idProduct=168
(it's available in smaller sizes, but this is the most economical. even w/ my prescribed salt habit, the bag lasts quite awhile.)

[issie]

(in fact, the sugar lobby probably funded this "piece" just b/c their feelings have been hurt that the natural salt folks have been doing so well lately.)

LOL! Yeah, if you're going to use salt --- Sea Salt or himalayan salt with all the minerals are the way to go.

I wonder if the immune issue isn't there first and the salt compounds the problem. We could analyze it so many different ways. Did it cause inflammation and problems with the veins, kidneys, heart etc. With so many people finding autoimmune issues and mast cell issues ---makes one wonder. But, adding extra salt has had a lot of research done to show it's not good for the cardio system. And "most" heart doc's will tell you that. Also, a kidney doc will tell you the same thing. Since there is dysfunction with so many in regards to both of these organs ----might be a good idea ---to NOT take it with a grain of salt.

Issie

[ashleighheath]

good points, Issie!

very interesting observation about the inflammation and overall disease. certainly sodium could be a factor; however, i again. at least in jest, point to the sugar lobby which is probably at least an equal if not more culpable variable in this equation.

yes, each person needs to consult with their physician regarding their own issues.

i've even had 24 hour/urine "kidney function/sodium" test just to make sure that my kidneys were handling my salt load and my body was getting the proper amount of salt.

i only wish that i had eaten as well as i do know that i have POTS (i.e. rarely anything heavily processed) before i got sick and become more knowledgeable on a large matter of things. and, i really thought i was knowledgeable and really did make an effort to eat well when i was "healthy."

[ramakentesh]

good points, Issie!

very interesting observation about the inflammation and overall disease. certainly sodium could be a factor; however, i again. at least in jest, point to the sugar lobby which is probably at least an equal if not more culpable variable in this equation.

yes, each person needs to consult with their physician regarding their own issues.

i've even had 24 hour/urine "kidney function/sodium" test just to make sure that my kidneys were handling my salt load and my body was getting the proper amount of salt.

i only wish that i had eaten as well as i do know that i have POTS (i.e. rarely anything heavily processed) before i got sick and become more knowledgeable on a large matter of things. and, i really thought i was knowledgeable and really did make an effort to eat well when i was "healthy."

I often wonder if I hadnt eaten so much crap, pushed my body ridiculously and drank too much in college whether i would have ended up with POTS. Will never know but I know that Ill be very picky with my own kids in regards to diet and taking time out.

[issie]

Yes, we all are thinking about our lifestyle choices and what we maybe can do to change that. I know my diet is a drastic lifestyle change ---but, one that I think is going to pay off. One thing we learn from our parents is our eating habits and if that plays any part in our genes and family issues then we for sure will want to set a good/better example for our kids. Since my POTS seems to have been in my family (I think my grandmother had it) and a good many of the other genetic things that could be related to EDS, MCAS and POTS ---the one thing that is consistent in families is the way they eat. They usually pass down the eating habits.

As for POTS and the possible issues with salt ---since many of us have kidney issues (I have low renin and aldosterone and am in 2nd stage chronic kidney disease) there is obviously a connection with salt - kidney function - salt handling and that all affects the heart function (heart rate and blood pressure). There is also an autoimmune component here (with me hypogammaglobulinemia, vitiligo, alopecia and at one time was positive on dsDNA). I have often wondered about adrenal function and have in the past had low cortisol and had to take meds for that. But, I never could understand if there wasn't a low serum sodium content why you'd want to introduce more sodium into the blood or body in an effort to hold onto more salt to hopefully retain more water and fluid content in the blood. Salt is corrosive - destructive. If you need more sodium and fluids ---that's a different story. But - how many of us for sure can say that this is absolutely necessary and we are low or deficient. We speculate about it ---we feel dehydrated. We think we need it ---but, do we really. With me having low renin and aldosterone levels the treatment was not florineff. The doc said the treatment for that was heavy diuretics. Hmmmm, just the opposite of what a POTS person would think. But, it wasn't to replace with synthetic aldosterone (florineff) it was to dehydrate yourself with diuretics. We didn't do it - because the idea back then was that this was NOT the right thing to do for a POTS person. But, my blood pressure was going up and up and up. The doctor said that when my blood pressure was at stroke level to come back and then we'd start the diuretics and aggressive treatment for the kidney dysfunction. Ha! Cause tons of damage - maybe have a stroke and then we will treat you with heavy diuretics. Well ----I did have to do some diuretics when my kidney function really started getting worse and it didn't seem to make me any worse for the wear. I also had to make sure that I wasn't over doing it with salt. Was told NOT to salt load. Most of you know my story - as I've been here for a long time.

BUT ...........the thing that has helped me the most was treatment for mast cell issues (which also works on the immune system and inflammation) and this drastic lifestyle changing diet. My kidneys are continuing to get better as are some of my POTS issues. I'm still not well ----yet . . . .but, there are subtle improvements.

Issie

[Batik]

I'd want to see the original study. The media are notorious for poor science reporting, sometimes to the point that they will report the opposite of what a study actually found. Possible issues with this one:

1) If the study on humans was for a fast-food diet, not two controlled groups where the only difference was salt intake. (Which surely shouldn't be that difficult to do by now?)

2) If they're extrapolating from mice to humans instead of actually showing effects on humans.

3) If the mice were given a very heavy dose of salt, way beyond the equivalent for humans. I believe it's common to use overdoses in animal tests in order to see what the worst case scenario might be.

4) Salt may function differently in healthy/average humans to humans with dysautonomia.

Really, what we'd want to see would be research on humans with dysautonomia, a reasonably healthy diet (rather than, say, the Standard American Diet), no medication used at all, the only difference between them being salt intake, and then keep that going for, ooh, a few decades.

[arizona girl]

Well my input on this is, I never really salt loaded after diagnosis. Just enough to see that it wasn't helping me. I'd always avoided salt, as that was the diet trend I grew up with. I often have low salt osmotality . Having said that I've had signs and symptoms of autoimmune disease and health issues since I was born. My mom had toxemia with me and I had to be feed goat milk.

We always had a pretty healthy diet in my family. In spite of all that I still have a messed up immune system which I feel has a genetic basis.

I do though now take in a bit of himi pink salt, as we know I have low sodium at times. I am also one of those who's body gets rid of their urine really fast. I should drink more fluids then I do, but when I do I'm living in the bathroom.

I agree the study has many things that need to be questioned. Don't most people that eat fast food also drink the soda with high fructose in it. Why isn't that the factor. Or even the fat content.

[ramakentesh]

Articles like these are usually questionable and I'm not advocating that anyone stop loading on salt if your doc tells you to.

I never ever crave salt yet I am told I have low blood volume and feel better on saline, florinef and licorice.

[Relax86]

As a kid and youth my family had a relatively healthy diet - no fast food, no sodas and very few meals with processed foods. I cook that way as well. I also didn't party too crazy in high school/college. I've been eating the colors of the rainbow for over 15 years (as per Dr Andrew Weil). As it turns out I"m the healthiest sick person I know. Point being, if ya partied and had a great time I say - glad it it was a blast. I did have some environmental exposures. I I had several major orthopedic surgeries as a kid due to a birth defect. Makes me wonder if my body poorly tolerates blood loss.

Prior to my 2nd flare, right around Oct/Nov I was eating salted popcorn and bought salted peanuts like it was my job. I had no clue POTs or a severe BP drop was looming. I craved salt but never put it together. Once my BP stabilized so did my salt craving. The salt I started to use after the flare was a himalayan sea salt and I liked it. My urinalysis has always been close to normal, and I'll be honest I've done a terrible job in the last year keeping my labs together. I might go back and look at which part of my urinalysis was off.

[arizona girl]

Rama, I love your new list of symptoms. Very entertaining! I just noticed them. Don't know though how you guys that have those severe symptoms get through. I don't get dizzy mostly, I feel terrible on standing, but I think dizzy and shaking is so much harder then what I deal with. My heart goes out to you guys with that set of symptoms.

Also, didn't think you were advocating the article, but it does have some points to consider. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

[issie]

Rama, I love your new list of symptoms. Very entertaining! I just noticed them. Don't know though how you guys that have those severe symptoms get through. I don't get dizzy mostly, I feel terrible on standing, but I think dizzy and shaking is so much harder then what I deal with. My heart goes out to you guys with that set of symptoms.

Also, didn't think you were advocating the article, but it does have some points to consider. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Yeah, that was a new add Rama ---like the way you expressed it. I can soooooooo relate.

Issie

[issie]

Here's another article that explains this study a little more. Looks like they are going to continue the studies to try to determine more what the T cells and IL connections are to autoimmune issues and how salt can play a role in it.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/03/07/too-much-salt-may-trigger-autoimmune-diseases-studies-find/

Issie

[issie]

Articles like these are usually questionable and I'm not advocating that anyone stop loading on salt if your doc tells you to. I never ever crave salt yet I am told I have low blood volume and feel better on saline, florinef and licorice.

I wonder if any people have figured out if florinef will crash your adrenals? Since it is an adrenal hormone and that is what it is usually given to a person for. I know some have had a horrible time trying to come off it once they are on it. (It was my first drug to try ---typical POTS RX. But, it gave me horrible miagraines and it didn't make anything any better.) I think we need to really figure out what is "causing" the low blood volume and go at it from a different angle. I still hold to my thoughts of it being the wrong way to go ----long term -----unless there is an adrenal issue that you are trying to treat.

Issie

[boymommy3]

This is so interesting to me! I have actually been planning to post about this because I have a hard time understanding it.

I have been drinking Gatorade daily since December (when all my POTS came back with a vengeance) per my GP's recommendation, and eating saltier snacks (pretzels, crackers, goldfish). All the while my blood serum sodium is normal (high normal actually) and my urine sodium was normal as well (actually low normal). I just don't understand! The thing that is puzzeling to me is that I honestly do think I can tell a difference when I have the Gatorade and salty foods. WHY, if my sodium levels are normal? I also don't have low bp right now. Two years ago when all this first came on I did have some low bp's but not to the point of fainting. The cardiologist then told me to eat as much salt as I wanted. I would even say that many times this go around my bp is a high normal not a low one.

I have always liked salt and salty foods and salted things, but not ridiculously. Probably more than I should though, and here I am doing it even more! I am daily concerned if this is good for me. Like I said though, I really do feel a difference with it, I just don't understand why. I do little test runs often and see how many days I can go without a Gatorade. It isn't very many before I start to feel worse and then drink Gatorade and feel some better. I am currently addicted to extra-cheddar goldfish becuause they taste much saltier to me. I haven't actually checked the difference in sodium content.

Any thoughts on my situation?

I did recently read an article that there are some studies coming out that are stating that salt isn't actually the cuprit for high bp. I can't remember where I read it though. I will try to find it and post it on here. It was very interesting....but like others have said.....you really can find a study to support your thinking on just about anything these days.

Anyway, thanks for this thread! This place is such a life line for me. I am daily impressed with the medical knowledge that is floating around here.

[Aimes]

I stumbled across another article. It goes a little more in depth into the actual experiments involved. Interesting information! http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/257319.php

[issie]

Yes, Aimes, that is interesting. Goes along with what I thought ---maybe the autoimmune component is already there and the salt just makes it worse.

And yes, sometimes a Gatorade does make one feel better ---but, it may not be the salt making one feel better. It has other things in there and it supposedly is to balance out electrolytes and there is more to them than salt. Something else to think about also, our bodies craves sometimes things that we may be sensitve or allergic to. There are food colorings in Gatorade and also sugar and salt --etc. Could it be that coming off it --the body is having a craving because of this? Or, could it be a detox/herxing situation from not having that in the body? (Like a person does when stopping caffeine -in coffee.) Just a few ideas - that popped into my head. My husbands doctor told him to NOT guzzle Gatorade ---but slowly sip it and drink water with it. The body can only uptake so much salt at once. He actually made himself really sick and imbalanced his electrolytes more by not doing this and had to go see her. It took him months to recover from that.

Goes back to the T cells and autoimmune issues. I've always thought that inflammation and possible autoimmune issues must be playing some sort of role here. Guess, we're getting closer to sorting some of this out.

Issie

[ramakentesh]

The idea is that the sodium increased liquid and plasma retention. Although short-term it just normalises venous return and stroke volume.

As for my symptoms - thanks - yeah i fluctuate from pretty bad to almost non-existent which is apparently somewhat unusual. So I dont have it as bad as many (who are bed bound, sick all the time, etc)

[Guest Alex]

Thanks guys for sharing all those resources.

Interesting info to say the least.

Alex