My Trip To The Pot (no S) Doctor And What He Said

[MelissaCrystal]

Hey guys,

I wanted to tell you about my trip to the medical marijuana doctor because I thought it was cute/interesting and I thought some of you might be curious about it.

So, to get a license you have to bring in your medical records, and I did and let them photocopy a couple of important ones from Stanford that sort of summarized my issues. This is kind of a new thing because a year ago, the doctor prescribing the pot could diagnose you. Now you need previous records. So that's kind of nice, but I don't know how strict they're being. The doctor at the office was seeing other patients while I was filling in my medical background and reasons for smoking medicinally. He saw them very quickly, very formally, and the appointments all went by fast. So when I handed my paperwork in, I assumed I'd be seen soon. I was fine with waiting though---there were older people and some housewives in the waiting room and it reminded me a lot of a chiropractor's waiting room with brochures on the walls about herbs and alternative medicine.

About 20 minutes went by after the receptionist gave him my records, and he didn't see any other patients in the waiting room during this time, which was funny because the appointments were only like 5-10 minutes long before. Then he came out, and called my name, and shook my hand all nervously, not making any eye contact.

I sat down in his office and he started talking very quickly and somewhat nervously, still not able to look at me while he was fumbling through my paperwork. He was telling me that he's never seen someone with this type of condition and that he thought I was very brave for finding doctors to help me and for finding my own methods of treatment. He thought it was really tragic that there was no immediate cure and again, commended me on my strength for working and continuing on with life despite my condition.

He also started to talk about some of the treatments of Dysautonomia and some of the research being done at Mayo Clinic. I was shocked....did he look up all this info before my appointment? He must've been doing that while the 20 minutes passed. I told him that my medical records had been submitted to them a while ago for research purposes and that I really hope they continue to study all the mechanisms and causes of Dysautonomia because there is such a lack of information out there about it. He started praising me again, and telling me I'm going to be a hero someday because I'll win someone a nobel prize. Haha.

He was such a sweet guy, and so nervous to talk to someone with a REAL condition. He probably gets so many borderline cases day by day where he has to question whether or not it's really a need. It's pretty easy to get a prescription though so I assume they're given out even without need, but at least he can feel good about MY case. He was SO happy to give me my prescription, and he was doing a very good job at making me feel like he was a real, professional doctor and knew a lot about the medicinal qualities of marijuana.

He told me that people with POTS specifically should stay away from Sativas, which is the more "fun" strain of pot (the upper, the one that makes you laugh and have fun and feel motivated). He said that it gives normal people tachycardia and dizziness upon standing because it's a stimulant and acts on the nervous system in a way that would definitely exacerbate our symptoms. He told me I should just stick to mellow Indicas because they'll slow down the system more and give me a sedative effect that might sooth the tachycardia I normally get, and also they're supposed to stimulate the digestive system in a way that can help with constipation or slow bowel. He said I can take pot in pill form to make that work even better (and I've actually tried this, it works...but feels verrry weird in my insides lol like a numbness that flows through my tract...great for ulcers but it caused a little bit of weird burping for me). He also informed me that marijuana has a tendency to raise blood pressure which is great for my low blood pressure problem, and that a vaporizer may help better with that as opposed to burning anything. He said so much more, but it's definitely all online if you guys are curious about all the healing effects in studies. There are so many. Even just the ACT of smoking helps with anxiety because of the breathing in and out and of course the effect of the weed.

I think it's most important though to point out that this doctor completely confirmed my theory that certain strains of pot are horrible for us and others are more medicinal. My suspicion was definitely correct. I tried smoking for years before recently, and I thought I couldn't handle pot, but as soon as I started experimenting with different kinds of medical marjiuana, my life changed. I now have a sleeping aid that works, an anti-nausea drug that doesn't give my organs permanent damage, and an anti-depressant that works right away with the only side-effect of being high, which isn't all that bad once you get used to it after many months of tolerance-training. I didn't always like Indicas though, they made me feel like I couldn't think...couldn't focus on anything. Like horrible brain fog x 1000. But after a year of smoking medicinally, it's VERY different on me. I don't get as high, but the medical effects are still there. Smoking just makes me feel "better" if I'm feeling icky, and I don't really need to get high anymore. Actually I try not to get high at all, which is easy because my tolerance is pretty strong these days. It's great =) And I hope some of you guys who say you can't smoke because it gives you tachycardia and all kinds of issues, give pot another chance someday, just be very responsible and careful about it and make sure you're smoking the right kind. I am the queen of tachycardia...I can't even handle a small cup decaf coffee and I can't do sugar, so I KNOW when something is making me feel bad, and most strains of pot DO make me feel bad. But if you're careful about what kinds you do, you might be very pleasantly surprised.

Anyway, I hope you guys found my little adventure interesting! I haven't been to the dispensary by myself yet, hopefully they are just as informative and professional as this doctor I saw. I'm glad I did it! It's just one more step for me towards being independent (as opposed to being reliant on my ex).

Btw, Master Kush is my favorite strain of Indica because not only does it treat all the things I said above, it also treats my sexual dysfunction which is a HUGE plus.

[iheartcats]

This is all very interesting!

Did you see a doctor 'tied' to a dispensary? I'm not sure how it works out here.

Can you share how it helps you sleep? That's one of my big issues. I hate taking Ambien too often - one, it can make me slightly more tachy (which can be a side effect of Ambien), two, it isn't effective over a while. I only take it now and then, but would like to have better sleep overall. This is an even bigger concern when I have to get back to work.

Thanks!

[MelissaCrystal]

It's through Medicann, if you go to their website you can set up an appointment over the phone. They never got back to my appointment set up online so I'd just call em if you were interested in that. They have offices all over the bay area, but the doc I went to is 2 blocks from 19th street bart in Oakland, so it was convenient for me. The prescribing doctors aren't allowed to be the in the same location as the dispensaries, but there is one like a block away. The dispensary nearest me in Oakland is in the back of a nice cafe, and business men/women and normal looking people are always using it. But there are definitely seedy dispensaries here and there, and I avoid those cause the people can be creepy. Basically the docs are on their own, able to prescribe it and run their own business doing that, but Medicann licenses the dispensaries and issues out the cards to the patients seen by the prescribing doctors. So it's all tied together by the California law---everyone has to be licensed and official, and it's usually connected to Medicann...at least in the bay area. There may be different 'companies' (organizations?) that are in LA for example. No idea. But the dispensaries are basically growers/dealers who own locations that are licensed by Medicann and regulated by California law to dispense medical-grade marijuana.

After I smoke, I get really sleepy and actually start yawning, which I NEVER do "sober" even when I'm exhausted at night. My insomnia is so annoying. But when I smoke, it wears me out. Supposedly an MRI scan shows that parts of your brain act as if it is sleeping when you are high on marijuana, so maybe it makes it easier to slip into the dream world? No clue. I can't find the article/study. But a good sleepy Indica seems to change something about the way I feel at night. It prevents me from getting wired. If I wait too long though and the high wears off, I get wired again though, so I usually smoke a bunch until I feel really foggy, then I lay down and I go into that thinking stage that usually slips into a dream. I have to be careful to not -think- about sleeping though. Anyway, normally, when I'm not high, I just lay there in the thinking stage and never slip into a dream. I end up just thinking, no matter how relaxed I am, ALL night. So pot -definitely- helps trick my mind into slipping into the right stage =) Still takes a while (maybe 1.5 hours), but I haven't had a sleepless night since doing my nightly smoking routine.

Even ambien doesn't work on me =( It doesn't trick me into falling into dreams, it sometimes actually makes me -more- restless. Xanax didn't work at all, and Trazodone made me sleepy but I didn't stay asleep and I was drowsy the next day. I've NEVER had after-effects from pot so it's really great for me. In fact, it seems like my sleep is more restful now if there's nothing to wake me up at night. (I need it pitch black, no noise, and I have to sleep alone for me to stay asleep... =( really annoying). And there's also no withdrawal or addiction to it, which is nice. Psychologically I might be a bit addicted, but it's more logical than psychological in my opinion =p I know it helps me, so sometimes I feel like I "need" it in the evenings now. But my body doesn't care, which is a great change! I just cannot handle drug addictions. Not going to risk them ever again...thought I was going to die last time.

There are a bunch of guides online (and usually at the dispensaries, or if you ask the people handling the medicine) that tell you what each kind of Indica does...like the characteristics of the high and what areas of the body it tends to target. They're all different. There are even some Indicas that keep you alert and do the opposite of what I want, so I do have to be careful in choosing what to take. It's all really interesting. I'm turning into one of the most educated people I know on pot, and I never imagined myself to end up this way....hah...

[dsdmom]

Wow, thanks for the info melissa. I'm in MA so we don't have medical marijuana available but I really did not know about all the different strains, so that's just good info to have. I hope you continue to feel well on it.

[janiedelite]

Thank you so much for sharing about your appointment. Very interesting, indeed! Nausea, constipation, and adrenaline-symptoms are some of my main POTS symptoms. I've got a couple of other meds to try first, but I think I'll put marijuana on my list.

[mountain girl]

Glad you shared your story, and yes it was cute and interesting. I did not know that there were different types of "weed"[easier to spell than mara...]Your state has been ahead of the rest of the country on using it for the medicinal purposes. That would be so cool to not have to take pills and to have one thing to feel better.

[EarthMother]

Thank you for sharing the details of your journey.

As a fellow Californian, you certainly have given me food for thought and a topic to discuss with my PCP.

[toddm1960]

Glad you've found something to help..........this is your POTS on pot, kewl.

[MelissaCrystal]

I went to a dispensary today called Blue Sky and they were extremely nice and professional! They knew everything about all the products they had that day and told me what the effects of each were. So I'm very satisfied =) I got a Purple Kush, which various medical websites say is great for pain, depression, and insomnia. Here's an example of a guide that tells you what high each type gives http://www.onlinepot.org/misc/cannabis_characteristics3.pdf There are many new strains being grown all the time, but my rule of thumb is just to stick to the Indica family (genotype).

I also want to explain how pot treats pain and nausea, because I think this is really interesting. Cancer patients love pot because of this.

So pot doesn't actually make pain or nausea -go away-, but the high you get causes it to go all the way to the back of your mind. It's like a huge distraction, like you're only using the front part of your thinking, and what your body is experiencing is really hard to focus on or feel. You have to think really hard to feel yourself sometimes when you have a strong body high going on. So sometimes just being a tiny bit high causes all the pain and nausea to just float back into your mind and all the sudden it becomes really manageable. If you eat an edible pot treat of some kind, you actually feel waves of numbness flowing through your limbs, especially in your digestive system. So that's a bit different if you need something stronger. And then for the warning---certain sativas and "focus" highs sometimes -create- pain in me. I've definitely had some bad strains give me back aches that weren't there before, and if I get too high on a sativa, it can make me dry heave and almost have a panic attack. So pot definitely has to be treated like a medication. It's not all fun and games like so many potheads think, I do have to be careful what I smoke and how much I smoke, and different strains help me more than others. I do think pot can be dangerous and I do believe it needs to be regulated by the state, but I'm SO grateful that I have access to it.

I wonder though if different types of Dysautonomia need different genotypes of marijuana. Like if you have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, I wonder if a brain-high Sativa would be better (unless you have tachycardia). I don't know! All I know is what it does for me =)

After doing some more reading online, there are some interesting studies going on! Supposedly THC is great for getting off drug dependencies (which we may need help with). "In humans, drug treatment subjects who use cannabis intermittently are found to be more likely to adhere to treatment for opioid dependence.[83] Historically, similar findings were reported by Clendinning, who in 1843 utilized cannabis substitution for the treatment of alcoholism and opium addiction[84] and Birch, in 1889, who reported success in treating opiate and chloral addiction with cannabis.[85" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_cannabis

There are tons of different active compounds (cannabinoids) in pot, and Indica strains specifically have more Cannabidiol (CBD) which is why it is better for anxiety, depression, and it even says for MS (which is similar to our stuff):

Cannabidiol (CBD), is a major constituent of medical cannabis. CBD represents up to 40% of extracts of the medical cannabis plant.[86] Cannabidiol relieves convulsion, inflammation, anxiety, nausea, and inhibits cancer cell growth.[87] Recent studies have shown cannabidiol to be as effective as atypical antipsychotics in treating schizophrenia.[88] Because cannabidiol relieves the aforementioned symptoms, cannabis strains with a high amount of CBD would be ideal for people with multiple sclerosis, frequent anxiety attacks and Tourette syndrome.[89][90][91]

There you have it!!! That's why indicas are better for me! CBD is what I'm after =) It's a great medication I guess!

Couple more study results that are linked in the wikipedia page:

Preliminary findings indicate that cannabis-based drugs could prove useful in treating inflammatory bowel disease (consisting of Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis),[11] migraines, fibromyalgia, and related conditions.[12]

Medical cannabis has also been found to relieve certain symptoms of multiple sclerosis[13] and spinal cord injuries[14][15][16] by exhibiting antispasmodic and muscle-relaxant properties as well as stimulating appetite.

Other studies have shown cannabis or cannabinoids to be useful in treating alcohol abuse,[19] attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD or AD/HD)[20][21] amyotrophic lateral sclerosis,[22][23][24] collagen-induced arthritis,[25] rheumatoid arthritis,[26] asthma,[27] atherosclerosis[28] bipolar disorder,[29][30] childhood mental disorders,[31] colorectal cancer,[32] depression,[33][34][35][36] diabetic retinopathy,[37][38] dystonia,[39][40] epilepsy,[41][42] digestive diseases,[43][44] gliomas,[45][46] hepatitis C,[47][48] Huntington's disease,[49] hypertension,[50][51] urinary incontinence,[52] leukemia,[53] skin tumors,[54] morning sickness,[55][56] methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA),[57][58] Parkinson's disease,[59] pruritus,[60][61] posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD),[62][63][64] sickle-cell disease,[65] and sleep apnea.[66]

In a 2002 review of medical literature, medical cannabis was shown to have established effects in the treatment of nausea, vomiting, premenstrual syndrome, unintentional weight loss, and lack of appetite. Other "relatively well-confirmed" effects were in the treatment of "spasticity, painful conditions, especially neurogenic pain, movement disorders, asthma, [and] Glaucoma".[10]

This is also an interesting read, on how it has been proven to help HIV patients:

Investigators at Columbia University published clinical trial data in 2007 showing that HIV/AIDS patients who inhaled cannabis four times daily experienced substantial increases in food intake with little evidence of discomfort and no impairment of cognitive performance. They concluded that smoked marijuana has a clear medical benefit in HIV-positive patients.[77][78] In another study in 2008, researchers at the University of California, San Diego School of Medicine found that marijuana significantly reduces HIV-related neuropathic pain when added to a patient's already-prescribed pain management regimen and may be an "effective option for pain relief" in those whose pain is not controlled with current medications. Mood disturbance, physical disability, and quality of life all improved significantly during study treatment.[79] Despite management with opioids and other pain modifying therapies, neuropathic pain continues to reduce the quality of life and daily functioning in HIV-infected individuals. Cannabinoid receptors in the central and peripheral nervous systems have been shown to modulate pain perception. Despite management with opioids and other pain modifying therapies, neuropathic pain continues to reduce the quality of life and daily functioning in HIV-infected individuals. No serious adverse effects were reported, according to the study published by the American Academy of Neurology.[80]

[MelissaCrystal]

I talked to my mom today about all this, and we did a lot more reading online about all the studies they did on the MS patients and people with fibro.

The studies we read (lots are linked on the wiki) showed an improvement of symptoms over long periods of time. So pot (specifically CBD found in indica) was actually -treating- MS in these patients. CBD stays in your system, so the more and consistently you smoke, the more you have in your system throughout the day/week.

I was bed ridden a year ago. 5 months ago I started smoking (just out of boredom really, and the fact that it cures my nausea). Right now I'm working, single, and in better health than I ever have been. My symptoms are still THERE, just manageable, especially with my nightly smoking routine. My body has really been surprising me...I relapse when I'm stressed or if I don't eat properly or some "slip" in my routine, BUT, a year ago -nothing- I did seemed to help. I thought I was going to die.

I'm just wondering if my partial recovery has anything to do with my use of marijuana.... I don't know. It helped those MS patients and now they swear by it. I'm really starting to become a HUGE fan of medical marijuana and I'm so glad more and more money is being put into researching all the health benefits.

[juliegee]

Melissa-

I hope this new variety provides even better relief. One of my main concerns with marijuana is the delivery method. I hate that you have to risk the health of your lungs to get the benefit.... Did you ever try Marinal/pill?

How old is your child? have you decided to be open about your new "med"?

All the best-

Julie

[Janey]

Melissa, thanks so much, this has answered all my questions about cannabis and Dysautonomia.

Janey

[Maxine]

I'm thinking it would be a lot better to treat depression then a lot of those other SSRIs and other drugs used for depression. I think a lot of those drugs are poison to some. I take such a small dose of wellbutrin to help raise my BP, so I sticking with it for now, because I'm nearly non functional without it.

The only problem with weed is that smoking it would cause damage to lungs----lots more tar then cigarettes. I smoked cigarettes for 15 yeaquitting in 1990, and smoked pot for fun in the mid to late 70s, and in the 80s too--- . I DID notice other types mellowed me, and others made my heart race, and made me paranoid. As I said my brother who passed away from cancer this past Feb. smoked it while out on a gig one night and he ended up in ER with heart rate over 230 bpm. It's possible it didn't go well with other drugs in his system for his cancer----i.e.------>pain meds, chemo drugs, anti nausea drugs.

I think my brother had mild POTS, he had several trips to the ER through the years for tachycardia----but his heart always checked out fine.

My brother ended up on marinol which is from marajuana---but pill form. He took it for nausea.

If they would legalize it---(at least for medical use), I think it could help the economy A LOT.

Right now I don't have significant nausea, so I don't need treatment---but if I did, I would consider it if I didn't cause tachycardia for me. It's good to know there's doctors who have knowledge about different types.

Maxine :0)

[MelissaCrystal]

My answer to the inhaling/lung problem is a nice vaporizer. They're expensive though! But docs recommend em---safest method on the lungs.

"Vaporization is an alternative to smoking. Rather than burning the herb, which produces irritating, toxic, and carcinogenic by-products, a vaporizer heats the material in a partial vacuum so that the active compounds contained in the plant boil off into a vapor. No combustion occurs, so no smoke or taste of smoke is evident. The vapor ideally contains virtually zero particulate matter or tar, and significantly lower concentrations of noxious gases such as carbon monoxide."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporizer

[MelissaCrystal]

Melissa-

I hope this new variety provides even better relief. One of my main concerns with marijuana is the delivery method. I hate that you have to risk the health of your lungs to get the benefit.... Did you ever try Marinal/pill?

How old is your child? have you decided to be open about your new "med"?

All the best-

Julie

I haven't tried Marinal specifically, but I have had THC pills. I'm not so sure it's THC I want though, I think it's CBD, seems to do more for me than just curing nausea. I really like the calming effect. THC is more of a numbing feeling when I take it in pill form---it's very eerie to me. It works so well on pain, but I can feel waves of tickling numbness flow throughout my digestive system and it's kind of distracting. I don't get that when I inhale it, so I guess that's what I prefer..

I don't have a child, but I have two younger brothers and a mother, and they all know. My mom doesn't smoke pot because she was a drug addict in her 20s and doesn't like to be altered in any way anymore, but both my younger brothers smoke pot for their morning sickness and daytime nausea. Poor boys. They're 19 and 20. My mom just worries about us being high all the time, but she knows I'm responsible and after all the research I pulled up, and how my health has been doing, she doesn't want me to stop. She thinks I'm doing something "right" at the moment so I shouldn't change my routine. But my brothers are a bit more of a mess and she worries about them, because they aren't the most responsible people and they're very unhealthy. I tried my best to take care of them (they were both living with me and I was trying to get them jobs), but I neglected myself in the process so I had to go off on my own and focus. Cody tried to get a job, but threw up in the office during his interview (since he couldn't go while he was high). I'm worried about them, but I've given them all the advice and sisterly pressure I could... they both need to go to doctors and change their lifestyles but it's up to them. I hit rock bottom and decided to work at life like wonderwoman, and perhaps they need to hit rock bottom as well to discover what they have to do to live. Sitting around all day smoking pot just to function is no way to live. Doing more than that is HARD, but they gotta figure something out to survive. If I did, they can.

[ramakentesh]

Very interesting post. I nearly wrote very interesting pots by accident...

I was reading about marijuana or THCs effects on glaucoma and how they could be afforded by reducing sympathetic drive to the eyes - this would mean that it potentially could treat POTS - specifically hyperadrenergic POTS (assuming the primary problem in these patients is indeed that they have an overactive sympathetic system although some research now seems to indicate that some just have a poor parasympathetic system).

My only concern with weed is that it messes with the nitric oxide system or has the potential to I think. Do you find that you feel unusually cold when you smoke now days??

[ramakentesh]

I found kava was pretty amazing for addressing my POTS symptoms, but i couldnt think sharply.

[MelissaCrystal]

I might get a little cold when I smoke (if I smoke a bunch), but I can't really feel it so it's odd. But I'm not sure... I might get cold limbs often... Don't know if it's a coincidence or not.

[juliegee]

Sorry, Melissa. I don't know where I got the idea that you were raising a child. I'm sure helping with your bros is enough for now Interesting that you should mention them & their use of marijuana. I have a similar situation in my family with a nephew. I'm assuming your brothers have some degree of dysautonomia??? And they are self-medicating? My nephew too. It is heartbreaking to see. He's dropped out of school- he's a senior now. And, he is practically a recluse. My brother (his Dad) is Dxed with NCS, POTS,CFS and doesn't treat it appropriately. He's had trouble finding a good doc. His stubborn nature prevents him from taking his meds appropriately. He seems to have given up on himself & my nephew. I suspect there are MANY teens, with dysautonomia, that are self-medicating. I'm sure most of society would look down on them and call them lazy, etc. I call them SICK & not getting appropriate help. A little tragic underground sect of our society....

One other problem is that marijuana DOES seem to take away motivation. Tough balancing act for teens just starting out with their lives who need to get an education, work experience, etc. I'm sure your brothers look to you as something of a role model. And, you should be proud for going about getting help the right way. Hopefully, they'll follow your example.

I know you'll be cautious with your use because of the history of addiction in your family.

All the best-

Julie

[MelissaCrystal]

I definitely feel like I'm the responsible one, but it's probably out of necessity! I have Dysautonomia worse than my brothers because I am female, which is supposedly typical. They are definitely self medicating, going off of what is easy to do rather than doing any work or lifestyle changes to get healthier. My lifestyle change was HARD. I have to eat PERFECTLY and have a meticulous routine and exercise now (which is haarrrrrd). But I had to do it to become independent again, and it was really important to me because I wanted to find another guy. Basically sex was my motivation lol I wanted to get better so I could actually find that kind of fulfillment and be healthy enough to actually DO it. It sounds bad, but really that's what's driving me right now...

My brothers haven't found anything in life to move them yet. My brother has a girlfriend, and right now that's his only reason for going to school, but they're breaking up soon and he's just going to go back to an unhealthy lifestyle. The younger one is basically just a bum, living off of my family. Pot definitely doesn't help with their motivation problems, but it's treating their depression for sure. I have a very depressed family, especially growing up with the abuse from my disabled dad. He had no life but to make ours miserable ;p It was tough. So I empathize with my brothers, but I kind of wish they'd actually FEEL the depression and let it motivate them to make changes in their life, rather than just medicate it away and do nothing because they're high and don't want to put too much effort into anything. It's tough, not sure how to help them anymore. But I do hope they follow my example. I've tried so hard to raise them right, because my mom was the worker and she had her own stuff to deal with while we were growing up. My brothers really look up to me, and they really love me. It's wonderful, but they're in a bad phase right now. I hope they get out of it without taking too many people down with them---like my mom, financially. And my ex. =/

So yes, pot is like any other medication. It has its side-effects, and takes a lot of responsibility to make sure the side-effects and psychological addiction doesn't effect your life. Takes lots of moderation and you have to be careful not to abuse it.

[firewatcher]

again for Susan

[zaks27]

Thank you Firewatcher! Great thread. VERY helpful. Thanks again!

[lissy]

POT could cure Pots ....lol, seriously I was a daily smoker from the age of 12 till 21 and then I quit and started having alot of my Pots symptoms isn't that unbelievable I always thought the altered state of mind somehow made me numb to being sick all those years but what if it was actually beneficial.

Guess I'll have to wait till it gets legalized in Indiana any try some indica.

The only affects I remember back then was being very lazy and hungry unless it was the *bad weed* with the paranoia and tachy but didn't come across that to often luckily.

Also to add I didn't have an addiction, no withdrawl ever I decided to quit one day and that was that.

Lissy