erik Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Have you read the article itself? Do you consider The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine to be a reputable journal?No & I don't know. I lean toward drug rather than herb, personally (or just inferring no general distinctions). Just mining for clarification about whether it induces it's alpha-agonism directly or via NE cascade (NE being key alpha-agonist, of course):Ruscus aculeatus is an alpha-adrenergic agonist that causes venous constriction by directly activating postjunctional alpha1- and alpha2-receptors, in turn stimulating the release of noradrenaline at the level of the vascular wallEnd user can impose their own judgment on quality of info as well as my "reading" of the phrase, which I tagged as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramakentesh Posted December 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Me? It worked wonders for four or five days - and I mean wonders! But then it started to work less and I upped the dosage as suggested by the naturopath and at the higher dose it made me feel wired and effected my mood subtely. Im not sure if this was because of unopposed beta receptor stimulation?Either way it was amazing in the first days - I walked 5 kms and didnt feel any fatigue! It was like before I had POTS. But then I noticed that my heart rate was still high and then the mood things started. When I wheened off it my POTS was twice as bad as before using it but I dont know if this is because it depleted something or just random. I think about using it again every day but I worry it might set me back if it doesnt work as well. Im going to try midodrine / mestonin hopefully in Feb when i see my doctor... Too many days off work now and its starting to really drag. 2 months in to a relapse I can be very positive but 14 months is a little harder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firewatcher Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 "I lean toward drug rather than herb, personally"The problem with many of these herbs is that they don't know which compounds create the mechanism of action! They can't isolate what does what. Butcher's broom has also been shown to be cytotoxic (cell death) so I question it's method of clearance. If it built up in the system and you couldn't clear it...like the branched chain aminos. My Dad is always saying "Herbs ARE drugs!" they just aren't as targeted or controlled. Since there is little regulation, you could get 4 or 400mg of something in one capsule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beggiatoa Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Butcher's broom is an amazing herb. Aside from being an alpha-agonist and causing moderate vasoconstriction, it also inhibits Elastase. Increased levels of elastase is implicated in inflammation, cancer and it causes axonal neuropathy, a type of peripheal neuropathy.I'm using 1 pill 3 times a day. If I use more than 1 pill at once I feel anxiety. Up to now, I haven't come across any tolerance issue. The elastase inhibiting action is important for me because I have a lot of saggy skin and the butcher's broom is doing a fantastic job of tighetening everything up.As far as improving the OH, not so well, but I see some small veins around my feet appear less noticeable with time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramakentesh Posted December 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 I havent tried midodrine but butchers seemed to have a much lower side effect profile than other alpha agonists ive tried. and if I hadnt developed tolerance to it Id still be on it. I did also notice it made me slightly jittery for a while at work but nothing too bad. It is true that herbs are unregulated totally - I agree with this - but in the case of butcher's broom there has been consist evaluation of its mechanisms of action and for me I didnt really care if it was slowly poisoning me LOL - I felt the best I had since I was about 14. I hadnt even realised Id have mild ortho issues since then until I took butchers. the mechanisms of butchers and DHE are almost identical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramakentesh Posted December 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Also I just remember feeling 'well' on it - like just feeling somehow that it was correcting other stuff such as inflammation and fatigue. Pity it stopped working and started effecting my mood subtely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prettyinpink Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 I take 100 mg of butchers broom twice a day. I didn't notice any huge change but I have noticed small ones. Most of the studies I've read showed that over a 12 month period butchers broom significantly reduced chronic venous insufficiency. FOr that reason I've decided that even though I don't notice huge effects, its likely to be worth it in the long term. I made sure to get Butchers Broom capsules that contain 10% saponins since its the saponins that seem to be responsible for the medical benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prettyinpink Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FD..._6/ai_81761457/This is an article I found from Alternative Medicine Review. It does reference the studies done on butchers broom as well as suggested dosage etc.You can search butchers broom in pubmed and come up with lots of studies on its effects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramakentesh Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 its interesting that many of the people who said they were commencing butchers broom in this thread have not been online on DINET for a while - this means that either they are now deceased (gees i hope not!) or they have improved and dont want to come back and listen to us LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramakentesh Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 To clarify this is an old thread that I have bumped. Im not out trialling this WITH mestonin LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I was thinking the same thing as I was reading thru the previous posts...it was like a stroll down memory lane seeing all those names. Didn't jump to the first conclusion you hypothesized however. LOL I certainly HOPE that's not what happened to them. Haven't seen Eric on here for years...Literally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
issie Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 So Rama, do you think you'll go back and try butchers broom again. Just from the post, if it ups noriepi - it won't be the right one for me or others whose levels are too high. Also, the one post about the phenylamine - that's connected with glutamate and I've figured out I have issues with my NMDA system and phenylamine increase in that area and it will make me a whole lot worse. (That's what caused me to have that ER visit - too much aspartame (glutamate - phenylamine - in sugar free gum) and created the mast cell issues with my heart. I guess the biggie is - is your noriepi levels too high and can you afford to increase them and do you need to constrict or expand your veins?I know, I miss Eric too. He is a wealth of knowledge. Anyone heard from him?Issie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E246 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Glad you got some relief for a few days.I have been on florinef for the first time for 3 weeks now. I had the same experience with that - initially i couldn't believe how much better i felt and i rushed around for the first time in 6 months mostly because the unexplained chest pain got so much better. But the effect has worn off, the chest pain is back and i feel a bit crabby and down on it. Don't know whether to increase the dose or weather i should try and wean off. I was having daily rushes before i started it so still quite nervous of coming of it. Are you taking it only when needed? And do steroids wear off? I have never been on them before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
issie Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Bump up.I'm thinking my issues with the herbs I'm using could be the butchers broom. Since it ups NE levels and mine are already high and it also vasoconstricts. I took it today by itself to see what it would do and I got ringing in the ears and a numb face and very bad depression, and my tremors got worse. My hands also got very cold like terribly cold - like the circulation just wasn't in them and my toes turned purple. It felt just like how the midodrine did me. I even told someone I felt like I did when it was the midodrine downer. So, if midodrine works well for you - this might be the one to try. But, thinking it's causing adverse reactions in me. So, back to the drawing board. Here we go again. Oh, well - at least I figued something else out.Issie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramakentesh Posted February 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 I doubt the butchers broom at 100mg would do much of anything. It works differently to midodrine but some people say it makes the wound up. I didnt feel that much until maybe the tenth day. the literature is also confused on whether it stimulates NE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
issie Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 I doubt the butchers broom at 100mg would do much of anything. It works differently to midodrine but some people say it makes the wound up. I didnt feel that much until maybe the tenth day. the literature is also confused on whether it stimulates NE.I took about 250 mg. yesterday. I had gotten some by itself and it was stronger. So, it made a difference in a negative way with me. Whether the formula with less in it would do the same, that will be the experiment today. That, by itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
issie Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Midodrine and Butchers Broom affected me in a very emotional ways. Midodrine I couldn't quit crying and butchers broom gave me real bad paranoia and depression. I never want Midodrine again and I won't do butchers without something to counter-act some of the negatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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