Butcher's Broom Trial - Impressive Results

[ramakentesh]

Since ive been having a pretty nasty relapse of POTS recently i thought id give a few treatment options a try.

Ill just preface this with the usual Im not a doctor thing and say that Im not suggesting you go out and try this without medical advice etc.

This is a low down of my situation:
31 male developed POTS gradually with mild fatigue in my late teens, and then severe onset in 2003. After a year of very bad symptoms, my symptoms gradually improved and usually wax and wane between around 10% to 40% of their worst severity. Every time i go away for work or on holiday my symptoms generally almost disappear only to return at full severity for a few months when i return home (its a mystery and ive never been able to work out why this is...)

Ive just come back from a holiday four weeks ago and the usual POTS fog has descended once more.

My main symptoms are dizziness, presyncope, lightheadedness and brain fog, I also have lots of visual symptoms, tremors and the heart beat that ive pretty much learned to ignore.

When i was very bad i was sensative to everything - even foods brought on an episode. I am still sensative to caffienne at times but I can tolerate alcohol unusually well for a POTS patient (it has no effect on my pots and can actually improve my symptoms at time - maybe im a freak?)


I was reading about butcher's broom being used for treatment of orthostatic hypotension. While I have POTS and most of the time my blood pressure remains stable even when my blood flow was measured as being reduced by as much as 40% in my carotid arteries during tilt table test, I thought that if it improved blood flow and perhaps pressure by a little it was worth a try.

Still i wasnt expecting much. It is a diaretic so i was concerned that this would cause me more hassles than its vasocontricting properties fixed things.

I bought Butcher's Broom as an alcohol extract. The first day I took 2mls in the morning. I got slight improvement in my symptoms but didnt notice much. I noticed a slight 'doped out feeling' and a slight sleepiness for about half an hour after injestion.

Second day I took another 2mls and had a sudden improvement. Then I took another 1ml. I had AMAZING improvement! I felt fantastic - energy levels were suddenly very high, i could go shopping and stand talking to the guy behind the cash register for 20 minutes without feeling all rushed and like im goint to pass out. In short i could actually relax standing! I cant remember even as a teenager feeling that relaxed and comfortable standing without moving!
My energy levels were also amazing - I stayed up late working and had a bit of trouble sleeping. But i woke up NOT dehydrated and I slept without any heart beat problems or other sleep symptoms.

I have now been taking Butcher's broom for a week. Today Im coming down with a cold and it didnt seem to help as much - i still felt some symptoms, but i walked home from work without a problem.

But for the last 5 days Ive had AMAZING results with Butcher's Broom. Its made me realise how WIRED i feel ALL THE TIME with pots - I could sit down and relax and not have to lie down from extreme fatigue. I can walk places, I can stand and talk to people and not feel like im 5 minutes behind whats going on or worry about passing out. I havent felt presyncope in a week now.

Here is a list of the improved symptoms so far:

- less fatigue
- much less dizziness
- better visual accuracy and focusing
- better sleep and more refreshing sleep
- in short it improves all my POTS symptoms WITHOUT the side effects that other vasoconstrictors have plagued me with.

The down sides Ive encountered so far:

- it can tend to make you thirsty - its a diuretic and ive been drinking copious amounts of gatorade.
- its fairly short lasting in the morning - you may have to redose after an hour or two as it seems to wear off
- and the one that is concerning me most - i think I may already be developing tolerance to it. My original effective dosage was 3 mls in a day. Today I took 6 mls to get the same effect.

Ive been told that I can happily consume up to 6 mls three times a day so ive still got room to manouveur. Im just hoping I dont get too tolerant to it and lose what has been the most helpful medical intervention ive found so far for POTS.

[PattiL]

Wow, what fabulous results! How did you hear about it? After reading your post, am I understanding correctly that you're not on any medication right now? Why haven't any of the Dr.'s ever mentioned this? Can you find it in a drug store? I'm going to call Chrissy's Dr. and ask him what he thinks of it and whether it would be an option for her.

Thank you for the information, very interesting.

Patti

[dsdmom]

Thank you so much for the info! Butcher's Broom is something I was thinking of trying a while back but never did. I did do Licorice for a while until I figured out that it was the licorice that was causing me major chest pain (related to reflux). Guess some people can have that reaction...while for others licorice can help their reflux. Guess I was just a lucky one....

Anyway, this is great info to have...I may take a look at this again. If my memory serves me correctly, butcher's broom is supposed to work like a miler midodrine. Actually, a pharmacist I had been working w/ had me take something similar that has been studied extensively in Europe and now I can't remember the name - think it started w/ a D. Anyway, I didn't tolerate that...felt like I couldn't breathe well. So maybe butcher's broom would do the same thing..who knows.

At any rate, thanks again for the review!

Edit: Just remembered the name of stuff I tried: Diosmin

[beggiatoa]

It's interesting that you're having positive results. But if something if having a diuretic effect, wouldn't that make your symptoms worse? If you have POTS, you probably also have low blood pressure.

[ramakentesh]

Yeah you would think that the diuretic effect would be bad news but ive found it to be milder than caffiene in terms of its diuretic effect and i keep my fluids up.

That being said i can tolerate one or two beers without a problem- not that i do this often or anything - but that may mean that diuretics dont effect me as much as the average POTSie - wish I could handle coffee though - wehen im bad its very bad news for me...

[ramakentesh]

And im on no regular medication - beta blockers on rare occasions when my heart is racing at night, couldnt really tolerate much else. So my previous regime was licorice extract and lots of water.

[Lenna]

This sounds so encouraging and I hope it continues to work well for you. Please update us in a couple of weeks. I'd love to hear how you're doing.

[gwensvilla]

I am from the UK have seen butchers broom mentioned... but havent a clue what it is... could you describe what it is???maybe it has a different name here??? thanks gwen

[Sophia3]

WOW! I am already always cotton mouthed the last thing i need is a diuretic...I have heard of butchers broom and many other things but have avoided it due to diuretic properities.

Glad it is helping YOU though...ya never know with this stuff but one has to be careful.

[ramakentesh]

Well after 9 days of use I found that tolerance became a fairly big issue in terms of larger dosages required to get the same effect very quickly.

I also noted that it seemed to be effecting my mood - or at least i was feeling pretty lethargic the last four days and kinda down.

I forgot to take it this morning, went to work and then had a full on adrenal storm followed by a faint in the meeting room in front of all my workmates. Im pretty annoyed and embarrased about it but its not my fault.

I feel utterly terrible this afternoon - took my dosage without any effect. Ive now taken some licorice and a beta blocker which has helped much more.

Id say its probably quite useful short scale, but after 9 days on it I didnt feel right and I guess its back to the drawing board (licorice or a smaller dose of florinef)??

[Sophia3]

sorry ramaken

but often times we think we have stumbled onto something and think its a vitamin, med or food change...only to have things get bad again...so was it just a good few days or weeks one had? or coincidence? Or tolerant build up.

It's good to try things as we are all like snowflakes (individual) and react differently to things...but sometimes trying it's tough.

Like I got an old email joke once that said Bread caused all bad things to happen...most folks who are in accidents/go into hospitals/get sick have eaten "bread" within 8 hours of all these events...thus bread must be the cause...

Sorry about fainting in front of co-workers...but on the brighter side, you are able to still maintain a job it sounds like.....though that's little comfort earlier if you were embarrassed....I hope things smooth out for you.

[ajw4790]

Hi,

I just wanted to add make sure you are consulting with a dr on all of this. Because the combo of Butchers Broom, BB, and Licorice and any other meds may yeild more negative affects than positive when used together. I don't think that you are supposed to normally take all of these at the same time? Please don't self medicate and make sure to talk to a doctor about what you are taking, even non-prescriptions.

Good luck!

[masumeh]

Happy it works for you. I've heard that a combination of Butcher's Broom and Licorice Root worked for another POTS patient I met at my doc's office. She takes only these and works a full time job without glitches! Wow.

I tried it, but the Licorice Root actually made me feel worse (more foggy, tired). Butcher's Broom destroyed my stomach after just a few pills. Painful, crampy, couldn't eat.

[beggiatoa]

I took a closer look and I think I'm going to try it. The prices seem rigth on Iherb. However, I'll probably group this with the rest of the stuff that build tolerance that I'll only use on special occasions. Phenibut and picamilon are also on this list.

I also read that it can help connective tissue and varicose veins. That's cool too.

I don't know if this would apply to butcher's, but Magnesium has been shown to prevent tolerance with Adderall. Maybe magnesium can help with other substances??

[ramakentesh]

Yeah I also think that its probably better for occasional pickmeups - it definately totally helped with the dizziness and pretty much all the symptoms of POTS but ive had a talk to my partner and she said i wasnt myself on it - kinda crabby and I must say that on the seventh day i was feeling slightly depressed or something - my mood wasnt right.
Im wheening off it now for the time being.
I talk to my doctor about all my treatments - most doctors would agree that there really isnt a 'perfect' treatment for POTS - what helps for one person may not for another.

Butcher's Broom is pretty good for the dizziness and stuff but the tolerance issue was a real pain. I think the sideeffects that started coming on for me mood wise might have had to do with the upped dosage to get the same initial effect.

[ramakentesh]

Ive done some reading on Butcher's Broom. its basically an alpha agonist that acts quite similarly to midodrine but less potently. Unlike some vasoconstrictors or alpha agonists it doesnt actually cause constriction through release of norepinephrine - it does it through its own action which might be important for more hyper POTS.

It did have potential and my doc had no problem with me trying it at the time. Just a pity that tolerance was a big issue.

[erik]

Unlike some vasoconstrictors or alpha agonists it doesnt actually cause constriction through release of norepinephrine - it does it through its own action which might be important for more hyper POTS.

Just a quick note... I believe that phenylephrine is kind of similar, doing the constriction directly... as opposed to pseudoeffedrine which cascades to norepinephrine. I get away with cautious minimal use of either, but the phenylephrine does seem to impact me less overall. It is an OTC ingredient... do you happen to tolerate it in cold/allergy meds... does it give a helpful alpha-agonist effect or backfire?

[ramakentesh]

I think Butcher's broom's constricting abilities are confused - some studies suggest that it promotes NE release whereas others say that its constricting abilities appear seperate from NE release through direct action on the smooth muscle or alpha 1 receptors.

Im also wondering whether the venous permiability issues are what made it helpful - as in hyper POTS there appears to be a large loss of plasma volume from the stomach veins into surrounding tissue.

[abbriggs]

beggiatoa: Plenty of people have POTS without having low blood pressure. You blood pressure has nothing to do with getting a POTS diagnosis you must have Orthostatic Tachycardia but, can have completely normal blood pressure.

[ramakentesh]

some of us have the opposite - postural hypertension and increased pressor responses

[green]

I tried Butcher's broom for three days. I don't think it had any positive effects for me and I feel pretty disappointed.

I went to a specialty herbal shop in my hometown that seems very professional - they distill liquid extracts right there in the store and I talked to the owner about their standards and procedures. But, I still wonder "how much of the stuff am I getting?" since the bottle of liquid extract informs me obliquely that I should be taking "5 - 15 drops" each day but does not have any other information about dosing or contents.

Previously, I purchased some Horsechestnut Seed Extract and have been using it for a week. In contrast to the Butcher's Broom, the Horse Chestnut seems to help, but the benefits haven't been dramatic.

some of us have the opposite - postural hypertension and increased pressor responses

[ramakentesh]

the difference was dramatic in my case but not long lasting

[erik]

Here's a cool overview article on Orthostatic Hypertension (maybe a repeat post, but what the heck). It mentions a number of familiar concepts:

Orthostatic Hypertension: When Pressor Reflexes Overcompensate

There is this on Butcher's Broom for OH (hypo), and if it helps underlying probs no reason it couldn't help for OH (hyper) though elsewhere there are warnings about combination with other drugs, as one might expect of any drug/herb:

Ruscus aculeatus (butcher's broom) as a potential treatment for orthostatic hypotension, with a case report

From their description it does induce norepi but in a localized end-stage spot... as opposed to something which enhances it up-stream or tells adrenals to flood the blood with it, etc. So norepinephrine is "technically" induced, but not in the manner one would tend to be "concerned" with. That's how I interpret it, at least

[green]

Have you read the article itself?

Do you consider The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine to be a reputable journal?

Here's a cool overview article on Orthostatic Hypertension (maybe a repeat post, but what the heck). It mentions a number of familiar concepts:

Orthostatic Hypertension: When Pressor Reflexes Overcompensate

There is this on Butcher's Broom for OH (hypo), and if it helps underlying probs no reason it couldn't help for OH (hyper) though elsewhere there are warnings about combination with other drugs, as one might expect of any drug/herb:

Ruscus aculeatus (butcher's broom) as a potential treatment for orthostatic hypotension, with a case report

From their description it does induce norepi but in a localized end-stage spot... as opposed to something which enhances it up-stream or tells adrenals to flood the blood with it, etc. So norepinephrine is "technically" induced, but not in the manner one would tend to be "concerned" with. That's how I interpret it, at least

[extern14]

So is the Butcher's Broom not working for you anymore? Are you still taking it?