Gamma-Aminobutyric Acid Or Gaba, Have You Heard Of It? Picamilon?

[RichGotsPots]

I came across this in the role of Tremors and then alcohol withdraw syndrome. They have a big affect on the nervous system and result in many autonomic symptoms. I was wondering is anyone has had any testing on these neurotransmitters?

Or is anyone tried Picamilon (also known as nicotinoyl-GABA, Pycamilon, Pikamilon, etc) is a dietary supplement formed by combining niacin with GABA, and what were the results?

[ramakentesh]

My regular doc gave me that GABA powder to help with sleep. it didnt do that, but it helped with exercise tolerance a little and made me more relaxed. But it can have paradoxical effects on normal people so I stopped using it after two occasions.

[issie]

Rich,

You PM box is full - can't send any messeages.

Issie

[issie]

GABA had a paradox effect on me. It's supposed to calm you down, but it hyped me up. Anything that works on GABA receptors seemed to not be too good for me. For some people it works well - things like neurotin and topamax work on GABA receptors. I can't take niacin at all - it has a strong vasodilation effect - but, for some reason I'm allergic to it. It makes my throat and nose swell shut. I can take niacinamide - which doesn't have the flushing effect.

Issie

[Guest Alex]

Hi Rich,

back in the days I had been told I have anxiety issues (before being diagnosed with POTS) I've tried taking GABA and niacinamide. I have not - at that time - noticed any improvement or worsening of my symptoms. Nor have I noticed an improved sleep quality. It did not relax or calm me, as I still had to take ativan/lorazepam for my "panic attacks" and to be able to get some decent sleep. The other med I was on at the time was bisoprolol, 1.25 mg (too small of a dose according to my doctors to make a difference - but for me it actually kept my tachycardia under control; too bad I had a lot of side effects from it, despite the very low dose).

Long story short - I read about people with anxiety and/or panic disorders using GABA and niacinamide religiously with excellent results. For me, even after a month of taking the pills it made no difference. Maybe the amounts weren't right?!

I hope this helps, good luck!

Alex

[martiz]

I take 500mg daily. I have been on this dose for 2 years.

I also reduce my glutamates (no MSG, synthetic sweeteners, etc)

Glutamates are excitotoxins while GABA is a calming.

I do not take it with niacin.

It is part of most of the autism protocols - DAN!, Yasko. I read something recently about POTS and glutamic receptors. I will try to find the link.

Marti

[POTLUCK]

I read " The GABA and NMDA receptors should be balanced, but after an injury or viral attack, NMDA fires more than GABA. Minor and Hunter (2002) have proposed that prolonged exposure to inescapable stressors will eventually deplete GABA, thus reducing an important form of inhibition on excitatory glutamate transmission. " here

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3022475/

[issie]

POTLUCK

I had a neuro that was also a functional medicine doctor and she was so sure that GABA would be a "cure" for me. The first bottle seemed to be okay and then with trying to take the next bottle - things started to backfire. We were both confused as it was so apparent that there was over-activation of the NMDA receptors. We didn't know I had POTS and didn't know my NE levels were too high. But, the GABA started to paradox on me. Still don't know the reason. I'm to this day working on NMDA receptors and realize that there is a very strong sensitivity to glutamates for me. I have to make sure to dietarially avoid them.

Thanks for the post - because if someone can use it- it may be very beneficial. I haven't tried it since, but am taking things to work on NMDA supression.

Issie

[ramakentesh]

I know two guys that take gaba just for nerves and stuff and they both say that the dosage is very hard and because glutamate uses gaba as a precursor if you take too much it swings the other way and you go into a super glutamate stimulated feeling which they describe as like a panic attack. Not ideal for potsies I would assume. These guys are 100% well so if it happens to them...

[issie]

I know two guys that take gaba just for nerves and stuff and they both say that the dosage is very hard and because glutamate uses gaba as a precursor if you take too much it swings the other way and you go into a super glutamate stimulated feeling which they describe as like a panic attack. Not ideal for potsies I would assume. These guys are 100% well so if it happens to them...

Am I ever glad to hear that. It was not at all good for me and that explains it - I'm super sensitive to glutamates and had that scarry ER visit because of it.

Issie

[RichGotsPots]

Those are GABA supplements but has anyone had there GABA nerves tested?

[martiz]

Hi Rich,

There are no specific GABA nerves that can be tested - there are cells in the CNS that have GABA and Glutamate receptors. If you want to test for your levels, then ask for an Organic Acids & Amino Acids Urine test or tell them to order CPT 82131.

RAMA: I believe your friends have it backwards. Glutamate is the precursor to GABA but not the other way around.

http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/nerves.html

Transmitter Molecule Derived From Site of Synthesis Acetylcholine Choline CNS, parasympathetic nerves Serotonin

5-Hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) Tryptophan CNS, chromaffin cells of the gut, enteric cells GABA Glutamate CNS Glutamate CNS

and here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamic_acid

GABA precursor

Glutamate also serves as the precursor for the synthesis of the inhibitory GABA in GABA-ergic neurons. This reaction is catalyzed by glutamate decarboxylase (GAD), which is most abundant in the cerebellum and pancreas.

Stiff-man syndrome is a neurologic disorder caused by anti-GAD antibodies, leading to a decrease in GABA synthesis and, therefore, impaired motor function such as muscle stiffness and spasm. Since the pancreas is also abundant for the enzyme GAD, a direct immunological destruction occurs in the pancreas and the patients will have diabetes mellitus.

HTH,

Marti

[issie]

So, now I have a question. If a person is sensitive to glutamates would that make them have issues with their GABA production? Since my doc thought I needed more GABA and increasing supplement levels of GABA, caused a sort of paradox reaction with me. What would this indicate?

Issie

[martiz]

Hi Issie,

I am not sure. I will research this. Like you, I am very sensitive to glutamates but can take 500mg of GABA a day. I have never tried taking more - I will try that and see if I get ramped up.

Is it possible that the gaba formula was not 100% gaba - sometimes B vitamins and the like are added. B6 can cause that wired feeling. I get skin crawling sensations from B6. But we are all a little different so there may be something in your genetics or enzymes that can't process gaba, perhaps.

I am planting a few flowers so I will look this up when the sun goes down and see if I can find anything about your reaction.

Just came inside to rest.

Marti

[martiz]

Hi Issie,

I found something right away. I disagree with a couple of points but the article seems pretty accurate. I pasted it here so you can read about the tingling that sounds like the reaction that you had. I bolded some points that we have already discussed.

_______________________________________________

http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/news/GABA.html

Side Effects:

Although the newer studies with body builders report using high doses of GABA with little side effect, these results may not reflect the experience of a more sedentary person. Carl Pfeiffer devotes a full page in his book to describing an unpleasant experience he had after taking a 10 gram dose of GABA:

“About ten minutes after taking the GABA, I started to wheeze and my breath rate increased to 45 a minute. Five minutes later, my heart rate peaked at 140 and my blood pressure at 180/100. I was choking, fidgeting and could not sit still. I had a massive anxiety attack, thinking I was going to die…….I vomited into the waste basket. Over the next half hour, this anxiety attack let up, but I continued to be nauseous for the next two hours.

“This dose of GABA also caused a constant flush sensation, like that of niacin, although my skin was not red. I had a tingling in my hands and over my entire body. This effect occurred even at the lesser dose of 3 g of GABA and is likely neuralgic, unlike the effect of niacin which is primarily vascular……” [20]

Home Experimentation:

Probably the only way you will figure out if GABA works for you is to try it. GABA is nontoxic and appears generally safe to take. There is nothing stopping you from testing these contradictory claims for yourself. Below are suggested doses for treating various conditions.

I personally had never taken GABA before reviewing this research and then stalled experimenting on it until I wrote this article. Once done with the preliminary drafts I experimented using 750 mg. capsules of GABA. I began taking them at 12 hour intervals. After the second dose I began to experience the tingling sensations reported by Pfeifer. I too thought them reminiscent of a niacin flush without the surface heat from vasodilatation. It was very noticeable for about five minutes and then only slightly noticeable if I paid attention and looked for it. I did not feel particularly calm during my normal activity but did wonder if something was different while driving, especially while merging onto the freeway, an experience where I typically notice some agitation. Interesting to note, it was just after getting on the highway while driving that I noticed the tingling.

Suggested Dosages:

I would consider suggesting GABA to patients who are over anxious or who complain of insomnia due to “too many thoughts which I can't shut off.” Again I like the coffee analogy: If they look or feel like they drank too much coffee, GABA may help.

Research no longer supports using GABA for depression, bipolar disease or PMS: if it looks like they need a cup of coffee, don't use GABA

For increasing Human Growth Hormone production the studies used between 3 and 18 grams. Keep in mind that at these doses expect tingling.

CAUTIONS

GABA may cause sleepiness, that is if it works: Do not operate or drive heavy machinery while taking GABA, at least until you know what effect it has on you. Do not take GABA if you have been diagnosed with bipolar or unipolar depressive disorders. If taking doses greater than 3-4 grams do not be surprised if you experience a flushed tingling sensation; this appears to be a common experience. Caution should also be taken in combining GABA with any drug which affects GABA pathways in the brain. These drugs include but are not limited to barbiturates, benzodiazepines, and alcohol. GABA has not been tested in pregnant or breast-feeding women, children, or people with liver or kidney disease.

G

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.

.

Other ways to skin the cat: other ways to increase GABA effect

Another approach is to look at substances which change GABA action in the brain. There seems to be more and better clinical research on the use of many of these substances in humans than there is on GABA. There are numerous natural substances which affect GABA. In fact understanding GABA helps explain the action of many commonly used herbs, vitamins and minerals.

Valerian root has a long history of use as a tranquilizer and works by increasing the effect of GABA on its receptors [30] American Ginseng also acts on the GABA receptors. [31] So does Kava Kava. [32]

All sorts of other unexpected things change GABA activity; the chemicals formed by aging whiskey in oak barrels increase GABA effect. Aging really does make whiskey mellower literally based on what it does to brain neurotransmitters. [33] These chemicals are released from the alcohol as a fragrance and appear to reach the brain by inhalation. [34] The fragrance of Oolong tea has a similar effect, increasing GABA action. [35] Extracts of green tea, black tea and oolong tea elicit a GABA response in test models. [36] Epigallocatechin gallate extracts from tea had the opposite effect, inhibiting the GABA response. Coffee extracts also inhibit GABA response. [37] Magnesium binds to GABA sites and increases effect. [38] Taurine protects against glutamate overstimulation. [39] [40] Its inhibitory effect may act as anxiolytic. [41]

Serotonin is another neurotransmitter and it enhances GABA. Therefore, as precursors to serotonin, Tryptophan and 5-HTP increase GABA action.

Theanine is an amino acid found in large amounts in tea. It is why a cup of tea can be calming despite the fact it contains caffeine. Theanine may increase glutamate transport [42] and increase GABA levels.

The vitamin B6 derivative pyridoxal phosphate is a cofactor in the synthesis of GABA. Some people have trouble converting Vitamin B-6 to pyridoxal phosphate and for those people taking this active B-6 may increase GABA levels.

While these other supplements alter or potentiate the GABA receptor, they do not add any GABA to the system. Many companies add one or more of these other materials to capsules containing GABA. The idea may be to amplify the effect of any GABA that crosses the Blood Brain Barrier into the brain. These other ingredients may work independently and be the active ingredient in the product.

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Marti here:

I have never taken more than 500 mg per day. Carl Pfeiffer and the author of the article were taking higher doses.

What dose causes this effect in you? Do you take B6, 5HTP, theanine, taurine, high dose of magnesium, benzo's, or other substances that can increase the effect of GABA?

Another article mentions that some people get wired but that it is rare. Let me know if you want me to keep researching.

HTH,

Marti

[martiz]

Rich,

To answer your initial question:

I have had my organic acids/amino acids tested - both plasma and Cerebral Spinal Fluid.

My glutamate (several versions) and my gaba levels were all normal.

Let me know if you want numbers and ranges.

Marti

[RichGotsPots]

Rich,

To answer your initial question:

I have had my organic acids/amino acids tested - both plasma and Cerebral Spinal Fluid.

My glutamate (several versions) and my gaba levels were all normal.

Let me know if you want numbers and ranges.

Marti

Thanks Marti, so they get GABA levels through plasma and spinal fluid. I wonder if for POTS it matters what position we are in when they are taken. Was it taken by an autonomic lab?

[martiz]

Rich,

To answer your initial question:

I have had my organic acids/amino acids tested - both plasma and Cerebral Spinal Fluid.

My glutamate (several versions) and my gaba levels were all normal.

Let me know if you want numbers and ranges.

Marti

Thanks Marti, so they get GABA levels through plasma and spinal fluid. I wonder if for POTS it matters what position we are in when they are taken. Was it taken by an autonomic lab?

No, none of these tests were done by an autonomic lab. I have only recently been focusing on the autonomic issues.

Actually, I have had them tested by urine, plasma and spinal fluid. Urine was part of the Genova Diagnostics ONE test through an autism doctor (ME/CFIDS population being much like the autistic population - I have gotten a lot of help from this type of doctor). The plasma and the CSF was part of a research study that I participated in at Georgetown University by an ME/CFIDS doctor. He is finding increased CSF pressure and elevated proteins in the CSF. I doubt that CSF is a common way to check these amino acid levels - it was part of the workup for the study.

I think the most common way is urine or plasma.

I found it interesting that the plasma showed 4 amino acids that were abnormal but normal in CSF.

Both tests were done while supine (blood draw on the first day and spinal tap the next day). I am not getting the feeling that position has a bearing. I have never read much connecting GABA/Glutamate to adrenaline or cortisol. But I suppose there might be a connection. Hmmm. interesting thought. I would not have thought so but perhaps posture would make a difference.

Marti

Marti

[ramakentesh]

thanks Mart - that might then explain the paradoxical reaction that did not sound particularly pleasant to me. Im curious how it does anything considering it is not reputed to be able to cross the blood brain barrier? Strange.

(ME/CFIDS population being much like the autistic population - I have gotten a lot of help from this type of doctor).

In what way? Increased sensitivity to light and sound are probably the only things I can see as similar. My wife works in Autism and we've talked about this at length.

[martiz]

thanks Mart - that might then explain the paradoxical reaction that did not sound particularly pleasant to me. Im curious how it does anything considering it is not reputed to be able to cross the blood brain barrier? Strange.

Well, that is the part I am not sure I agree with. I feel certain that I have read PubMed articles that it does cross the BBB. I would have to do some digging to confirm though. The author contradicts himself by citing GH changes due to GABA so it doesn't seem if he is sure either.

But even so, the CNS is not just in the brain - there must be receptors in other parts of the body. I mostly attached that article to show that others have reported a similar paradoxical relationship as Issie.

(ME/CFIDS population being much like the autistic population - I have gotten a lot of help from this type of doctor).

In what way? Increased sensitivity to light and sound are probably the only things I can see as similar. My wife works in Autism and we've talked about this at length.

The methylation pathway defects are exactly the same, the glutathione deficiency. The difference in manifestation is thought to be the age of the brain at the time of insult/assault - the older the brain, then females are affected. A young brain, males are affected.

Dr. Amy Yasko from Maine and some DAN! doctors have been working in this area for some years. Rich Van Konynenberg, an ME/CFIDS researcher was the first to make the connection some years ago and is bridging the two populations.

I can provide some of his papers or Dr. Yasko's if you want more info....

I have two autistic children in my Sunday School class and have similar genetic defects/methylation defects (I have compared their genetic tests and bloodwork to my own. I have several autistic relatives but I have never had access to their bloodwork. My SS kids and I share the same doc and I have tried to help their parents understand the tests.

MTHFR C677T/A1298C is a major one.

CBS

COMT

MTR

MTTR

Here is a link of some of Rich's papers. The first one is from 2004 where he has made the jump from ME/CFIDS to Autism.

http://aboutmecfs.org.violet.arvixe.com/Trt/TrtGSHIntro.aspx

Dr Yasko - she has allowed ME/CFIDS adults to participate in her forum for parents of autistic kids since the populations are similar. She is now accepting ME/CFIDS adults as "patients" - not full blown patients as her focus is the children. But she will review bloodwork and genetics.

http://www.dramyyasko.com/

Let me know if you want more info.

Marti

[corina]

this might or might not help but after reading what rama wrote about similarities to autism, i'd like to add that i was the same re sounds and light, always wearing sunglasses when outside, never ever turning on the radio and very confused when more people having (different) conversations when in the same room.

after i started octreotide that changed dramatically, i always have the radio on now and enjoy it very much and also enjoy birthdays and other parites with lots of people talking.

though i love science i can't participate in it (anymore) as i still have major cognitive problems but very happy some things have changed for the better, so i'm pretty sure it will mean something but i dont know what

[issie]

Thanks for the references Marti. Funny, there are those type of issues in my sisters kids - both the girl and her boys. My sister has CFS really bad. I don't do at all well with glutamates and found that out the hard way. The one article that listed foods to avoid - are the ones I react the worst to. So, maybe there can be a genetic defect in this pathway causing these issues - or at least contributing to them. I want to read that book reference - but, will have to do it later. Thanks for the links.

Issie

[issie]

Marti,

I just saw the research you did. Thanks for that! Funny, my sister just told me yesterday that she had found oolong tea to be something that was helping her and she couldn't understand - but, it was making her feel better. It increases GABA and with CFS - that must be something very deficient. It's unreal that she JUST told me that and here you found references to what it does.

Issie

[martiz]

Hi Issie,

Isn't that the way things go.... you hear or learn something then all of a sudden, references to that subject are everywhere!

I have gotten the most help for my ME/CFIDS from following all of the dietary restrictions that autistic kids follow. My son and I take the same vitamins that they take - with bioavailable versions of most B vitamins, no iron, no copper. We are gluten free, casein free and like you, I am finding that I feel better with a grain free diet.

My son displayed autistic tendencies when he was young but it wasn't severe enough to see a doctor so he was never diagnosed. He was very OCD as I was when I was young. But he is very bright and that has to do with the glutamate issue as well.

The brain need glutamate to learn and lay down memories. The autistic population have an imbalance in the GABA/Glutamate system so they have excess glutamate in their brains which is why most of the population are so bright almost savant. Unfortunately, too much glutamate causes early cell death due to the excitatory effect which doesn't show until they are older. Luckily, we learned about this before my son became an adult so he also is off glutamates.

It was so hard getting off glutamates but now when I ingest some in a restaurant -most likely MSG in flavorings or just plain MSG, I have a severe reaction - urticaria (hives) from neck to waist. So, we rarely eat out because one meal out has such high levels of glutamates. I have found that taking an extra GABA helps resolve that faster - so I have taken 1000mg in one day! But not at the same time as the extra GABA was after dinner or in the middle of the night when the hives started. And no, I can report that I never had the reaction you speak of - in fact, it has been the opposite. I would wake up after a meal out, wired and unable to sleep, itching and skin crawlies. It would only be after taking another GABA and a Benadryl that I would be able to go to sleep (it was probably the benadryl that helped me sleep but I feel that there surely was a time that I just took one extra gaba). Not sure as that was some years ago - now we just don't eat out.

Our brains need glutamates - it's the excess from processed foods that gets us into trouble. Right now, I seem to be doing well on a paleo type diet.

Marti

[martiz]

this might or might not help but after reading what rama wrote about similarities to autism, i'd like to add that i was the same re sounds and light, always wearing sunglasses when outside, never ever turning on the radio and very confused when more people having (different) conversations when in the same room.

I have sensitivity to light and sound that began after my last relapse when the POTS took front and center and the ME/CFIDS and Fibro took a back seat. My house is very dark which my son hates so I remove the dark blinds when he is home from college. I CANNOT have him talking to me when a movie is playing - we watch a lot of movies we have already seen and so he tries to start a conversation - it drives me beserk!

One of my autistic SS kids must make noises with a toy on the table and the constant rapping makes me crazy!

But I also see other behaviors in myself and my son that are similar - shyness in social settings, exaggerated and prolonged response to hurt, physical or emotional, increased level of anxiety, some OCD tendencies.

One of the kids who is autistic has a sister who is hyper mobile which I now find interesting.

But there is more shared biochemically than social traits but that's just my opinion. I don't know any severely autistic children just the two high functioning ones. And my relatives who are affected are also high functioning.

Marti