Anyone Tried This?

[firewatcher]

A recent post about fatigue and the CNS has me thinking and digging.

I have found a few studies that there has been some improvement in the fatigue aspect of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome with the use of a fairly common weight-lifter's supplement: BCAA's=Branch Chained Amino Acids (leucine, isoleucine, and valine.) Apparently it aids in reducing Central Nervous System fatigue that is common to over-training (due to depletion) and CFS (due to lack or altered synthesis.)

Has anyone tried this and did it help? I have NO idea what, if any side effects or interactions these would have with any of our POTS meds! Has anyone asked their POTS doctor about BCAA's?

[erik]

I have tried them. My symptoms vary so much that I just can't say if they help or not. I used a bulk powder and supplemented other protein supplements. Mine was "in a precise 2:1:1 ratio of Leucine:Isoleucine:Valine" as the product states! They're just basic amino acids. Some help may come from ensuring a supply of these, but another theory is that their increased presence is a "signal" to other processes in the muscle/low-level metabolism. I guess they have been observed in extra concentration during phases of muscle regeneration, so the hope would be that one can enhance or trigger that signal by occasional "general" presence... or at least make sure they are sufficiently available to the body when it wants to do this on it's own.

I've tried extra L-Glutamine as well as a couple other specific amino acids... and generally augment diet with a protein supplement too (though I avoid soy since it is credited with being estrogenic). Very little (basically no) chance for harm from these things. I just don't know if they do anything... it is so hard to tell. I haven't asked a doc.

[firewatcher]

I have tried them. My symptoms vary so much that I just can't say if they help or not. I used a bulk powder and supplemented other protein supplements. Mine was "in a precise 2:1:1 ratio of Leucine:Isoleucine:Valine" as the product states! They're just basic amino acids. Some help may come from ensuring a supply of these, but another theory is that their increased presence is a "signal" to other processes in the muscle/low-level metabolism. I guess they have been observed in extra concentration during phases of muscle regeneration, so the hope would be that one can enhance or trigger that signal by occasional "general" presence... or at least make sure they are sufficiently available to the body when it wants to do this on it's own.

I've tried extra L-Glutamine as well as a couple other specific amino acids... and generally augment diet with a protein supplement too (though I avoid soy since it is credited with being estrogenic). Very little (basically no) chance for harm from these things. I just don't know if they do anything... it is so hard to tell. I haven't asked a doc.

Sorry Erik, I definitely disagree on that one! If I had truly had kidney dysfunction, the extra protein would've killed off my kidneys faster!

These amino acids cross the blood-brain barrier and effect the levels of brain dopamine and whole body nerve transmission. I can find some studies for BCAA's and improvement of fatigue in CFS, but nothing for POTS.

My theory is that if it decreases the sympathetic load and decreases central fatigue of the nervous system, then it might improve the ANS function while relieving my feelings of tiredness. I just don't know how these are cleared (kidneys or liver) or whether they are broken down and used completely. I also don't know if they would effect the drugs I'm already taking. I tried DHEA once, on the advice of my endocrinologist and found out that I don't break it down into anything and it built up to sky-high levels in my bloodstream. I don't take any food, supplement or drug for granted anymore until I get it checked and cross-checked!

[juliegee]

Jennifer,

Keep in mind that Dr. Rowe's study found that 90% of CFS sufferers also had an autonomic dysfunction....

Julie

[firewatcher]

Jennifer,

Keep in mind that Dr. Rowe's study found that 90% of CFS sufferers also had an autonomic dysfunction....

Julie

I know, that's why I'm thinking that it may help with the POTS, if it helps with the CFS!

[erik]

In regard to risk...

Sorry. I guess that's true, particularly if someone has a condition that precludes these things.

I do believe that the "dose" indicated on my product at least, would have brought far lesser kidney load compared to a scoop of standard protein supplement or a can of "Ensure" or a steak (but certainly a doctor should be consulted for such concerns). The blood-brain transit is why these select essential amino-acids are more suspected of being useful "messengers"... so that is indeed worth considering... one is indeed making a "mystery" provocation (particularly if the amount or ratio is far from normal physiological or diet amounts).

What dose above normal intake levels are you considering? Do the studies you have read give some guidance on that issue?

[erik]

I used the tables at this site to get rough idea how much of these BCAA's I consumed. I basically followed label indicated dose, which was 4-8g of the blend in my case, meaning from 2g Leucine, 1g Iosleucine, 1g Valine up to twice that:

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/protein/

4-8 g of "total" protein is modest compared to lots of foods (for example a 4oz steak... kinda small for me... can be in the 30g+ if it's lean). One would definitely consult a professional, but it seems like if one is restricting protein one might actually take some of these isolated essentials to avoid deficiency while minimizing kidney load. But anyway, my "dose" was roughly like eating:

4 to 9 oz peanuts (I have definitely done this much in one sitting...sadly, it's a ton of calories though so not often, but I love the things!

4 to 8 cup white spaghetti (I'd usually eat no more than 3 cups, which is splurging but easy for me

5 to 9 cup kidney beans (I'm lucky to love these and eat a can easily a can or two a day which is about matching a "dose")

So given that I was supplementing rather than substituting I had perhaps upped my intake to about 2 or 3 times my normal, and was perhaps doing 2 to 4 times the RDA. I personally took these pre-exercise, rather than both pre & post... that way they were taken alone since I prefer to follow exercise with a light meal & general protein supplement.

I do not think my specific intake was dangerous for me, and the product I chose wasn't pushing a mega-dose, but one should probably contrast whatever dose is chosen (or referenced in a study) with comparable dietary intakes and see if it is way out of line. Sometimes with supplement studies, they do very high amounts of things... and perhaps putting it perspective with other things can help assess any risk. Hope these figures can help with that.

[firewatcher]

The most recent studies that I have found make this option much less appealing. I'll post more when my brainfog lifts, but other than severe neurological side effects, BCAAs can cause reduced cortisol levels and insulin resistance. Apparently they are finding that CFS patients have an amino acid conversion problem and cannot utilize them effectively. The problem comes with the overdose levels, they can't figure out where that level is since primates respond in a completely different way than rats! So if you can't convert them, and you keep adding more, overdose could occur quickly with severe nervous system results. I'm not willing to be the primate to experiment with them right now!

[erik]

Sounds like they're proposing the possibility of an analog to Phenylketonuria (though perhaps an "acquired" rather than genetic form?). If it exists, it would be quite a pickle.

[erik]

The most recent studies that I have found make this option much less appealing. I'll post more when my brainfog lifts, but other than severe neurological side effects, BCAAs can cause reduced cortisol levels and insulin resistance.

I'm wondering if it was the Duke study that you are referring to. It implicated BCAA's only in combination with high fat... meaning diets high if fatty & proteiny meats.

I'm curious what tie was found with BCAA processing and CFS. There is branched-chain ketoaciduria (or Maple Syrup Urine metabolic disease) but that, like the majority of known metabolic disorders, is pretty extreme and shows up prominently at young age. Perhaps there is some subtler version of something similar? So much of CFS and similar, look like "mild" metabolic/mitochondrial disorder... so this is a very tempting way to approach them which some seem to have success with (supplementing various low level mitochondrial fuels/transits and such).

[firewatcher]

If I remember correctly, the problems come with clearance. There is no clearance mechanism for BCAAs, they are used and converted or not and if NOT, then they build up and cause all kinds of neurological difficulties. The patients on high doses were monitored and tested to make sure that they used up the BCAAs and they were actually low to begin with. I would have no testing or oversight, so I don't want to make myself a guinea pig. I know that I have issues with conversion, when given DHEA, it built up in my system to extremely high levels instead of being converted into the hormones further down the line. Without being in a study and having someone who knows A LOT more about how these work with my system, I just won't try them.

[Dizzysillyak]

Hi there ...

I'm still learning about aminos but ...

Have you tried taking smaller doses of all the essential aminos several times a day instead of just these 3 in such large dosages ? It seems to me if we aren't handling aminos properly then taking all of them would be more beneficial than just taking these 3. And don't our bodies require other nutrients in order to utilize these aminos ? I can't remember but aren't certain B's essential too ?

BTW. I know my body isn't handling aminos properly because melatonin, theanine, 5HTP are helping me sleep so much deeper now. I've had to play with the dosages since it appears that our bodies don't need as much over time and too much of any of these can leave you sleepy during the day.

Can you tell me where the study is on aminos and CFS ? Is this a recent study ?

Here's a good article on aminos for those interested ...

http://www.biology.arizona.edu/biochemistr...sets/aa/aa.html

BTW. My body couldn't handle supplements until I'd been on a clean diet for several years. In fact, I still get UTI symptoms from B supplements unless I take AZO with probiotics and C twice a day. I wonder how many of us have to use dietary intervention first ?

ETA ... I started experimenting with Solgar's essential aminos several times day because they don't have tryptophan. These are low dose so at this point, I started with 1 a day but now I take 2 at a time at least twice a day.

[sue1234]

I get UTI symptoms on B vitamins, also! What's the deal???

[Dizzysillyak]

I get UTI symptoms on B vitamins, also! What's the deal???

Sue,

Sorry to hear you have this problem too ...

I was told that it's because B vitamins cause bad bacteria to grow. It appears to be true too ...

All I know is that I can take B supplements and not get UTI symptoms as long as I take 2 AZO with probiotics and C twice a day. I just tried the regular AZO without the probiotics and C and it made my bladder burn so bad that I'm not going to try it again ... I was already taking probiotics, FemDophilus even, and I was still getting this reaction ... I was already drinking plenty of water too .

I don't know if cranberry juice would work as well ... tc ... Marcia

[erik]

I don't know what the protocol of the study was. If they were trying to mimic/stimulate one observed physiological BCAA pattern, then they might have been given in isolation. Or perhaps they were given in high dose just augmenting normal diet (meaning including other amino acids)?

One consideration is that they might have been trying to suppress the fatigue signal. Some people argue that fatigue can be a protective mechanism. In other words, assuming it is an invalid signal and suppressing/overcoming it without addressing it's underlying cause could lead to damage. Who knows, perhaps the reason orthostatic intolerance is so commonly associated with CFS has to do with the inevitable pushing through of fatigue... a resultant rather than causal relationship. Either is speculation at this point... though obviously an expert can make a less "blind" speculation than I!

Anyway, I've found info indicating that the BCAA's are involved in signaling the fatigue. I would be curious to know if the study indicated more than this... did it indicate BCAA as underlying cause that could be corrected for some folks? Or was the success more like allowing patients to overcome the fatigue... perhaps to their detriment (like if they just used a stimulant or something)? That could be an important distinction for how much promise this holds to CFS treatment.