More Of A Boys Only Topic

[Tachy Phlegming]

Much has been made of the importance of vasopressin on this forum.

http://dinet.ipbhost.com/index.php?&ac...ressin&st=0

It turns out that the majority of people in the world are interested in vasopressin not for its regulation of blood pressure and urination but rather for its influence in "pair-bonding" (I don't understand how that is a more important and fascinating research topic than why patients with dysautonomia have polyuria -- and it appears that nobody on this forum understands that either -- but at least this research might give the men on here a way to figure out their vasopressin levels without a lab test ):

From

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/human-...is-dna-cheating

Why do men and women stray when they are comfortably tucked into a happy partnership? More and more evidence suggests that biology plays a role. One culprit is a gene in the brain?s vasopressin system. In a study of 552 Swedish men and their partners, all either married or co-habiting for at least five years, Walum and colleagues (2008) recently reported that those men with two copies of this particular allele had lower scores on a test of partner bonding (which measured levels of affection, consensus and cohesion); these men also experienced more marital crises and more threats of divorce, and more of these men were involved in a relationship without being married. Those with only one copy of this gene suffered considerably less relationship discord and those with no copies were the most securely bonded. This study did not measure infidelity directly, but it measured several factors likely to contribute to adultery.

The Wikipedia article on vasopressin indicates that amount of vasopressin in the male brain is correlated to aggresson and pair- bonding:

Moreover, studies involving either injecting AVP agonists into the brain, or blocking the actions of AVP, support the hypothesis that vasopressin is involved in aggression towards other males. There is also evidence that differences in the AVP receptor gene between individual members of a species might be predictive of differences in social behavior. One study has suggested that genetic variation in male humans effects pair-bonding behavior. The brain of males uses vasopressin as a reward for forming lasting bonds with a mate, and men with one or two of the genetic alleles are more likely to experience marital discord.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasopressin

So how do you guys fare on the aggression and pair-bonding scale? Assuming you don't have a problem with vasopressin genes but might have a problem with vasopressin levels, do you acutely feel some social defect the same way you feel something is wrong because you have polyuria?

And more importantly, do you feel less aggressive and less faithful when your polyuria is worse?

If not, do you think that the release of vasopressin into your brain is unrelated to its release elsewhere in your body?

[ramakentesh]

mmm... All i can say is that if im standing for too long im the crabbiest person in the world - many times Ive had to apologise to people later...

[erikainorlando]

mmm... All i can say is that if im standing for too long im the crabbiest person in the world - many times Ive had to apologise to people later...

I am the exact same!! Female crab version but the crab no less!!

[toddm1960]

Yup my problem also.......just can't stand for very long.

[erik]

One thing I have noticed is that I have bonded & have a love/hate relationship with my key exercise devices over the years... and also happen to refer to them as "she". I know that exercise induces a rapid increase in ADH/vasopressin to promote water retention. Perhaps that explains this particular bonding behavior?

I know that I would feel very upset with someone else taking my bike for a spin and might even respond aggressively, even though I have to spend ample time & money on her to keep things rolling along smoothly. Perhaps this is indeed a low level chemical response to some exercise induced vasopressin?!?

When it comes to consummated relationships, there is the "Coolidge Effect" (perhaps to be renamed the "Pro Golfer Effect"?). It is a scientific notion and is sure to battle with any vasopressin pair-bonding going on.

[Tachy Phlegming]

Erik wins the proof of research award hands down (or maybe it's just feet down and moving): strong relationships with exercise equipment when vasopressin levels are high, weak relationships with humans when lying down (if I understood that right).

For those who wrote about how crabby you get, from your descriptions, I'm not convinced it's aggression so much as discomfort ....

[erik]

Besides the two diabedes insipidus cases (I guess nephrogenic might cause high ADH if the kidneys are unresponsive & central is a lack of ADH)... someone with SIADH could be in a troubling pair-bonding predicament! Perhaps having "inappropriate" ADH secretion might lead to "inappropriate" pair-bonding... intriguing

In the theme of "boys only topic" I have been wondering (silently) if the phenomenon of "AM tumescence" (rhymes with "scorning should") can tell us anything about why the AM hours can be more orthostatically challenging for some. Is this indication that there is a generalized vascular dilation going on, that there are key hormones fluxing pre & early day, is it a sign of general blood flow changes that could be in effect, etc? Yet another data point to consider when looking for a correlating factor between symptoms and other processes.

It also seems like a cross section of men with autonomic problems may have tried drugs like Viagra and similar over the years (just by chance but also because autonomic problems can cause ED). I wonder if they happen to notice either a significant orthostatic problem or perhaps instead a huge help from those drugs (along the lines of the benefit to Raynaud's that has been studied or the avoidance of fatigue via increased blood flow to muscles). Unfortunately one is likely to be distracted from such observations but perhaps some of the guys did happen to notice side benefit? I would be particularly curious about Tadalafil (Cialis) because it has a really really long effect duration (36 hour window of opportunity by some accounts, so to speak)... so it seems one might notice either a really positive or negative effect throughout such an extended drug duration. Any of the guys happen to bump in to this drug and notice a big benefit or bad POTS crash related to it?

[firewatcher]

Besides the two diabedes insipidus cases (I guess nephrogenic might cause high ADH if the kidneys are unresponsive & central is a lack of ADH)... someone with SIADH could be in a troubling pair-bonding predicament! Perhaps having "inappropriate" ADH secretion might lead to "inappropriate" pair-bonding... intriguing

In the theme of "boys only topic" I have been wondering (silently) if the phenomenon of "AM tumescence" (rhymes with "scorning should") can tell us anything about why the AM hours can be more orthostatically challenging for some. Is this indication that there is a generalized vascular dilation going on, that there are key hormones fluxing pre & early day, is it a sign of general blood flow changes that could be in effect, etc? Yet another data point to consider when looking for a correlating factor between symptoms and other processes.

It also seems like a cross section of men with autonomic problems may have tried drugs like Viagra and similar over the years (just by chance but also because autonomic problems can cause ED). I wonder if they happen to notice either a significant orthostatic problem or perhaps instead a huge help from those drugs (along the lines of the benefit to Raynaud's that has been studied or the avoidance of fatigue via increased blood flow to muscles). Unfortunately one is likely to be distracted from such observations but perhaps some of the guys did happen to notice side benefit? I would be particularly curious about Tadalafil (Cialis) because it has a really really long effect duration (36 hour window of opportunity by some accounts, so to speak)... so it seems one might notice either a really positive or negative effect throughout such an extended drug duration. Any of the guys happen to bump in to this drug and notice a big benefit or bad POTS crash related to it?

Here's a little light reading, sorry no pictures!

Viagra and Parkinson's

"Despite a significant postural fall in blood pressure after sildenafil, all patients with multiple system atrophy reported a good erectile response and were reluctant to discontinue the medication." All they got was a wink and a warning label!

I think that it might work for Hyperadrenergic POTS, but if you are already OI, then you'd better not take the blue pills and instead rely on physical countermaneuvers instead. Although, you could always use the line "I'm falling for you....." and take it from there.

[firewatcher]

Honestly the aggression and pair bonding thing is probably more an oxytocin thing in humans. All the pubmed articles that I found implicating ADH and aggression were studies in Syrian golden hamsters or prairie voles. I have central DI, and come to think of it, I can't stand the little varmints! I stomp on them every time I see them, I just see red and that's all she wrote.......

[Tachy Phlegming]

Firewatcher, I thought the same thing at first but the 4th cite in the Wikipedia article is a study ostensibly showing the relationship in humans.

The following looks like a pretty good layperson article (although at least one description looks a little wrong) on how blood flow is directed to the penis with Viagra -- (with pictures! -- [ok, they're schematic ] )

(Warning: there is also a very titillating description in this link of what goes on at urology conferences. Who knew? . And again, what happens in Vegas never stays in Vegas.)

http://health.howstuffworks.com/viagra.htm

What's sort of interesting is that it describes how viagra selectively targets enzymes in the penis and the brain.

but then there's also this:

http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=8591

Which might help to explain the following:

It seems that men with MSA may normally have too much constriction of blood vessels in the penis (?) -- but not in the rest of their bodies and also that Viagra also leads to measurable full-body hypotension in people with MSA because of the way it must affect the right ventricle of the heart (?) whereas it does not in most other people.

[erik]

They do say there is PDE5 out and about, other than in the areas that Viagra is prominent in, it is just said to be in much lesser activity or level. It seems a long-duration version like Cialis would match these non-ED goals... is there something wrong about Cialis? It seems to be PDE5 inhibitor just like Viagra. I think it is credited with being even more selective... avoiding problems in the eyes and such, at least slightly less likely to cause trouble there than Viagra.

I am personally optimistic that in the quest for the "next Viagra" developers will stumble accidentally upon cures for POTS, and perhaps hypertension too.

I've been tempted to try vinpocetine but as always it is hard to tell what all the risks would be. It's said to be selective for PDE1 and is credited with some generalized effect (as well as cerebral). Beyond vinpocetine there seem to be quite a number of things in this genera.

I've wondered about Horny Goat Weed as well, which is usually marketed for "male prowess" stuff but could have some POTS interaction. I almost bought some when it was on sale, but didn't want to have the cute GNC clerk have to unlock the "special cabinet" for me and all that.

But really I kind of figure at least some of these things have been contemplated by the "autonomic experts" out there. I wouldn't have a chance to know unless they published something easily searchable about "what they contemplated" as opposed to things that made it to experimental trial and a regular publication. And of course, with human experiments one is likely to be more selective with what one bothers to test out... giving hamsters a cocktail of ADH/Cialis/HornyGoatWeed/Vinpocetine is a bit easier to get past the review boards!

I did try yohimbine (for energy & diet purpose, not for "male prowess" which it is also said to support), despite it being quite "wrong" adrenergically. At the modest dose I tried, it did not give me anxiety or physical symptoms (not beyond my normal range at least). I'm sure it might at higher doses or in other folks, though. It is said to do that (and this was even tried as a form of therapy, used as a tool inducing "physical" anxiety sensations).

There was this one exercise related amino-blends that I got for free which surprisingly did seem to work for me. It was the kind of thing that is supposed to support you in numerous ways including dilation (N.O. induced vasodilation is often cited by exercise supplement ads). I love the simplicity of the "you're tired because your muscles aren't getting enough blood" theory. It probably isn't the fabled "whole story" but it is a great fundamental thing to address. In that vein, there are hundreds or thousands of mild vasodilators marketed to "exercise" support that might be slightly beneficial and avoid overt O.H. if one is on that cusp.