Lethargic Smiles

Christy -- Thanks for the suggestion. They did a stomach and very top of my small intestine biopsy. Do they save the biopsies and if they do, do you know about how long? Is that something I should have checked no matter what or depending on my results in your opinion? Another question for you Christy, how did the lab react to you reminding them about the refrigeration? I know they'll have instructions right there saying the test needs to be delivered frozen and the other cooled, but I just really want them to understand every single minute at room temperature is detrimental to testing. I'm considering taping/rubber banding a note to the collection container reminding about the refrigeration. I don't want the person in the lab to pour out the urine into the the smaller collection container, then set it out somewhere "waiting" to be put in the fridge.

Hanice -- I will definitely give an update, thank you for caring! I am going to do the 24 hour collection Sunday to Monday, so by the end of the month, I should have some answers! Whether I have it or not, I will be happy to cross this testing off my list as having been looked into. bjbens -- I initially dismissed mast cell issues as a possibility for me because I do not experience flushing, rashes, or really any skin issues. However, I have so many of the symptoms I just had to investigate. I'm getting my POTS symptoms such as nausea, lightheadedness, pre-syncope, really under control with biofeedback (I went to The POTS Treatment Center), but a separate set of symptoms (just now realizing they're separate) persist. I believe if I find the root cause of why my lymph nodes swell (my earliest symptom) I will find my culprit of all of this. I sent Dr. Afrin an e-mail asking for his primer, he sent back this. Although I previously had been distributing a very informally written "MCAS primer" (for lack of any other published written guidance regarding the diagnostic approach to mast cell activation syndrome), my primer has now been supplanted by a comprehensive review chapter on MCAS I published in May in a new book on certain aspects of mast cell biology and disease. The primer is freely available to the public at the publisher's website at https://www.novapublishers.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=42603. Best of luck... I've only gotten part way through it (77 pages!), but things that made me decide to lay out my case and ask for testing: severe fatiguelifetime history of sinus issueschronic infections my whole lifetooth decay despite excellent oral hygieneupper left quadrant painenlarged spleen (past symptom)chronic throat painchronic enlarged lymph nodes in throat and armpitsnot being able to take a really deep breath (PGD2 is a bronchoconstrictor -- 10 times more so than histamine)hair lossstrange wound healing/scarring more than would be expectedmost POTS symptoms are also symptoms of MCAS2 endoscopies/1 colonoscopy showing gastritis even when no clear cause (although in 1 case I was drinking a ton of tomato juice on an empty stomach -- bad idea)I am diagnosed with hyperadrenergic type of POTS and EDS runs in my family, I believe I'm about to be diagnosed with itinsomnia despite severe fatiguelow-grade fevers (99.9-100.3)increasing sensitivities, for example I've taken the "sulfa" class of antibiotics my whole life. Recently I took it, and my tongue swelled up HUGE and after it went down, was sore for days.There's more symptoms, but that is the gist of it.

I just thought I'd share Dr. Afrin no longer e-mails out the primer. I sent him an e-mail asking for a copy and he promptly responded: Although I previously had been distributing a very informally written "MCAS primer" (for lack of any other published written guidance regarding the diagnostic approach to mast cell activation syndrome), my primer has now been supplanted by a comprehensive review chapter on MCAS I published in May in a new book on certain aspects of mast cell biology and disease. The primer is freely available to the public at the publisher's website at https://www.novapublishers.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=42603. Best of luck

Thank for the tip. I am planning on being a full-blown nut job about this with the lab and going as far and writing it out for them on a little piece of paper (taped to container) that what they are testing for will be eliminated/disappear from the urine if it is left at room temperature. I don't care if they think I am crazy -- us POTSies tend to be used to it anyway.

I just wanted to share something. I started reading about Mast Cell issues and wondered if it could be an answer for me. It was disappointing to see how hard getting diagnosed can be. Going to the east coast to see a MCAD specialist isn't really an option for me financially. I'd probably self-treat before I would do that. I e-mailed my immunologist (technically the physicians assistant) who I saw constantly prior to my POTS diagnosis. She is the person who, despite seeing me for 2 years, me always getting worse, me always having negative tests, me always having strange symptoms, never closed her eyes. She kept them open and one day realized she had never inquired about my tachycardia she sees on the chart each visit. I said I had though it was normal. She sent me off to a cardiologist, the first one was awful, but with the second one, I was finally diagnosed with POTS. I hadn't gotten back in touch with her because I moved 2 hours away and now had a POTS diagnosis. I sent her a thank you letter for always keeping an open mind and open eyes and inquired about MCAD testing. Here's what I got back: So good to hear from you! I am glad to hear you have found at least a few answers. You have had quite a journey! Thank you for your kind card and for sharing the information you have found. I do enjoy getting all the details and the links to learn more. You have become an expert on POTS, and, as I'm sure you've found, know more about it than your clinicians. Kudos to you for taking charge of your healthcare. Your blog is wonderful, and I'm sure a help to others who read it. I would be happy to order the lab testing you mentioned: the serum tryptase, 24hr urine prostaglandin D2, and 24hr urine n-methylhistamine. I can fax the order to the lab. You could then go to the lab to get the 24hr urine container that they are going to want you to use. Then return it to the lab for the samples to be sent to Mayo. Between all of us, we should be able to get the labs to Mayo in the right condition. I will state the temperature requirements on the order, you remind them when you take the specimen back, and Mayo makes sure that the specimen is received in the right condition for the test being run. I think that you could choose any Quest lab close to you. Just let me know which one you would like the order faxed to. I hope that this helps, and that you see improvement each day until you are able to do any activities you wish on the spur of the moment. Thanks for sharing. I just thought I'd share this positive doctor interaction since we tend to have so many negative ones. If anyone has any tips on MCAD testing, please share! I'm going to stop taking NyQuil at night and Singulair during the day prior to the test.

It's very frustrating, believing all these years that I had anxiety (never did though) and then one day boom! Full on symptoms. If I find anything that helps will definitely pass it on. Where you dx as a teenager or as an adult? Me too for the mono! Mono at 18, not diagnosed until just shy of 23. Still have lymph node issues to this day.

I am wondering if anyone has been diagnosed with Mast Cell issues and did/does not have the skin symptoms. I have so many of the symptoms of MCAD, but do not flush, get hives, rashes, itching, etc.... I am really wanting to find out the cause of my lymph node swelling. I am asking my immunologist (tends to be open minded and wonderful bedside manner) to test my 24 hour urine PGD2, methylhistamine, and serum tryptase. We will see what she says, but I am wondering if it is worth pursuing if she doesn't want to do the testing or doesn't think it fits.

Everyone -- I am so sorry. Somehow I didn't get the alerts for this thread.. or more likely, I did and forgot. I've posted some links a ways down that will describe a lot of what the center does and what a day is like there. It is day 44 of my treatment and, although I am not one of their miracle cases, I am doing better. I don't really know anyone (POTSie or not) who wouldn't benefit from learning how to control their ANS as much as possible. The biggest improvements to me are... I no longer require compression stockings and my feet don't turn purple when I stand (thanks to improved circulation), I have much less joint pain, my back pain is completely gone most days, I don't get a headache each night anymore, I don't get lightheaded when I stand (if I remember to take breaths first), my nausea is much less frequent, and gastroparesis hasn't reared its ugly head at all. Many days, my brain fog is better. I notice that when I do something to spark a "flare", if I rest, I stop going downhill whereas before, no matter what I did, I'd crash and burn. Now, if I catch it in time and just take it easy, my body kind of stabilizes. I went to my sisters 30th birthday party this past weekend, and for the first time for 2 years, at a party I wasn't constantly worried about my symptoms. I just took a breather every 45 minutes or so and I was able to stay SIX hours. I'm still paying for it (4 days later), but like I said, I am at a stable level of worn out so long as I rest rather than going down faster and faster. Being able to enjoy myself at a party for 6 hours is astounding to me. Everyone who sees me says how something looks different about me and how my eyes have life. What isn't better? My tachycardia is about the same (still on beta blocker). My orthostatic intolerance isn't much better most days but I think that will change soon because about once or twice a week it will be noticeably better. My fatigue is not better (this is unusual -- most people report this lifting early on), my lymph nodes still swell the same as ever, and my throat still hurts in response to physical exertion. My exercise intolerance is slightly better, but enough for me to get excited about. I think my throat issues, lymph node issues, and severe fatigue issues are separate from the POTS. I suspect MCAD triggered by mono caused this whole mess, but haven't had testing yet, so who knows. I do believe my tachycardia and orthostatic intolerance will improve quite a bit so long as I keep up with home treatment. Those are symptoms I went in knowing would take some time to see improvements in. I met someone (teenager) while I was there who is doing way better than before. She can stand longer, she isn't near as tired, and she just has more vigor. Everyone is different and it seems there is no way to predict how much/little this program will help someone until they try it. One thing I have noticed though is I haven't come across a teenager who it hasn't significantly helped. I'm sure they are out there, but I haven't seen them. If you go the the center, there is a private Facebook group for those who have gone/are going through the treatment. LooneyMom: They'll take any age! I met someone there would had just turned 15. She's doing great! Hanice: Thank you! I couldn't have afforded going there either without a fundraiser. It was hard to shout out to the world "I need your help!" but so heartwarming to see how many people (even strangers) helped me. Psalm: Thanks It pains me to see her here with my fiance and to be away, but it is so worth it when I think of being able to do things with her rather than just laying in bed! When I got back she asked, "If this doesn't work, can you go to the hospital and they'll do something else to make you better?" It pains me. I told her, "I will try for forever to get better so I can play with you." Akgirl: 1) The cost is $5,000 for the 2 weeks 2) I think rather than explain everything here, you'll get a better idea of how it works/how I feel (everyone is different) from my blog. Some people feel instantly better, in days. Others, it takes a few months. It just depends on the person it seems. Here is a link to my blog post on the tools they use: http://lethargicsmiles.wordpress.com/2013/07/26/pots-treatment-center-equipment/ and Here is my blog post on why/how it works: http://lethargicsmiles.wordpress.com/2013/07/23/day-1-pots-treatment-center-education/ Here is a link to my first posts on the center and about my days: http://lethargicsmiles.wordpress.com/category/the-pots-treatment-center/page/2/ I update my blog frequently and am almost always referencing my treatment. 3) She recommends a 1 week follow up a few months after your first visit ($2,000), but doesn't require it. I am using my last bit of fundraiser money to go there in October. You get sent home with equipment to work on everything each day at home. I spend about 2 hours each days on my treatment. It is quite a commitment! Some people feel better after a few days, some after a few weeks, some after a few months, and sadly, I'm sure some never feel better at all. 4) She recommend some supplements, but is totally fine with your medications. She will offer alternatives to some medicines (but not that many really) but say to stay on the medication until treatment is underway and you're feeling a bit better, then talk with the prescribing doctor. Does anyone have any other questions? I may direct you to a post on my blog if I answered it there, but I am happy to answer any questions! I had so many while I was considering this option and waiting to go.

I am 24, I was 19 when this all started.

I have this same question about tryptase. I'm a total newb to MCAD. This study from 2006 (based on what I read in abstract) found serum tryptase level were lowered by second generation antihistamine usage: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16843643 If I get tested, I'm thinking I will quit taking my NyQuil each night and also quit Singular (not an antihistamine, but sometimes used for MCAD).

For those of you who underwent testing for Mast Cell Activation, did you need to quit taking any anti-histamines prior to the testing? I know they have you do this for allergy testing. It makes sense they would if anti-histamines are something that can help with Mast Cell Activation, they'd have you stop taking it to get the most accurate picture of what is going on. A quick Google search did show studies where anti-histamines effectively lowered serum tryptase levels. I was just wondering how long to expect going off of them (I take Nyquil at night and Singulair during the day) to complete the testing.

I'm so interested in this and have the same questions as bjbens. I'm working my way through the slideshow. I'm very interested in what type of doctor diagnosed people and how other doctors (PCP) have responded to the diagnosis. Are the tests in the realm of what an open minded PCP could perform? I think I've got treatment for many of the symptoms EDS and POTS causes nailed down, but I feel like something about my mono triggered something in my body that has been rampant ever since, causing the EDS and POTS to flare up. I don't know if MCAS fits this or not. I saw swollen lymph nodes and fever on the list of symptoms which was my first symptoms (blamed on mono but never tested positive for it), and remains most major symptoms that can never be explained by any doctor.

Yes Kris, sorry for hijacking your thread! It brought up some interesting subjects. Dave I've had the full workup looking for neuropathy (thermo sweat test and QSART) and all is good. Thank you for the suggestion and I hope you find some answers.

I started each morning for about 4 years straight with one to three eggs. I found out a year and a half ago I am intolerant to eggs. I didn't believe it but eliminated them for 6 months and tried reintroducing them. The result was significant bloating and slight worsening of fatigue. Nothing major, but enough to tell me my body doesn't like eggs. I didn't know to be looking for a correlation between eggs and blood pressure so I can't comment on that. I feel your pain. I can't eat several fruits, oats, gluten, soy, dairy, or egg and am 100% free of them. I am trying to cut back on corn because I notice bloating, but corn tortillas are so helpful when gluten free! A good egg replacer,especially for baking, is Ener-g egg replacer. My mom has used it in recipes and not known the difference. My stepdaughter eats pancakes made with it and doesn't notice anything "off" and she is one finicky four year old. It's powdered. One box will last quite awhile as you only use 1 heaping teaspoon. I believe it has corn in it, but if you can tolerate a bit of corn, hopefully this will be an option for you. I had a few months prior to finally buying Ener-G where I'd use replacements like applesauce, flax, banana, all sorts of things, and food just never turned out quite how it did with eggs. With this egg replacer, it does! You have to mix it into a bit of water. Never add the powder directly to a recipe without blending it in water -- I've tried that shortcut and regretted it! Most health food or organic stores carry it, but I just order it online. I just dip meats into plain old bread crumbs or flour some of the time. Other times I use the egg replacer but I don't know that it adds much... However I rarely bread/fry food so do not have much to go off of, so if you try it, let me know your thoughts!

Thanks for your responses. My case is a both familial POTS (my sister had it) and post viral because I didn't have it until a bout of mono. In my sisters case, we believe some things in her life triggered it (high school girls can be so mean) and in my case it would have been the mono. My diagnosis for a couple of years was CFS, but then when they found POTS, they dropped the CFS. I honestly don't mind not having the label since they still give me meds to help with fatigue and they don't do anything for it really. I will definitely be keeping my eye on the research though! That's very interesting about the helpfulness of the PCR tests. Mine was also normal. I'm convinced I have EBV hanging out in my lymph nodes. At Mayo, when I inquired as to what the dr suspected caused my lymph node issues, he said possibly a virus going between dormancy and active depending on my immune system's state. It surprised me he said this because most doctors don't jump to that first. When I overdo it, the throat pain becomes pretty bad. I save spit because I hate swallowing although with andropgraphis, I often don't have to do this anymore. I've had strep go to my kidneys because I don't notice extra pain from it. Sometimes the lymph node swelling requires steroids. I just never pushed anything with doctors after the antibody test not showing an active virus and the PCR being normal. I don't know that there's much to be done so I don't really know if its worth pursuing although if I choose to, I have an open minded PCP and a VERY open minded immunologist.

When I had my tilt table test done at Mayo, the table had an armrest offshoot that my arm with the cuff on it was strapped to

I'm not very concise today, sorry guys! This is the idea behind Dr. Kyprianou's treatment plan at The POTS Treatment Center in Dallas. I do relaxation exercises for about 2 hours daily and eventually it is supposed to help through reteaching the body to go to parasympathetic mode which has all sorts of benefits like good brain chemicals being released, less cortisol being released, better digestion, better immune function, and I think one of the most important effects -- better circulation. It has been 40 days and it has showed more benefit than anything else, although it definitely isn't an instant cure in my case. The most impressive improvement (to me anyways) is my legs no longer turn purple/red when I stand. I can still only stand for very short amounts of time, but my feet used to turn purple after just a few minutes, even with compression stockings. I used to experience gastroparesis a few times a week, I've only had in once in 40 days. I used to be lightheaded every day, that has only happened for a few hours a few days in the past 40 days. The belief behind this treatment to relax the ANS (biofeedback) is a lot of symptoms come from chronic sympathetic nervous system activity when really we should be in parasympathetic most of the time. I don't believe sympathetic over-activity causes POTS, rather I think POTS causes sympathetic over-activity, and in turn, sympathetic activity causes many of our most disabling symptoms. My thoughts are perhaps if my body is in parasympathetic more often, it can control many of the symptoms while POTS gets the **** out of my body. If I could just go on a vacation for a few months while my body did that, I'd be game! I can deal with my heart rate increasing when I stand, what I can't deal with is pre-syncope, vomitting, gastroparesis and lightheadedness more often than not. To go to Dr Kyprianou's program, I had to go to Texas for 15 days with my Mom. While there, I had slightly more energy. I was no fool and realized I was away from the pressures of life, but I really didn't think it made THAT huge of a difference. Once I came home (I don't work but live with my fiance and am a part-time parent) everything declined a little bit from where I was. Not drastically, but definitely noticeably. Just little stressors like worrying about when I'd load the dishwasher, making a payment online, visitors, etc... have an impact on how I feel. I'm recovering from the setback and am lucky enough to have an extremely understanding fiance who is doing everything he can to make my home and life in general a peaceful, pressure-free place. I am realizing more and more how important lifestyle management and taking time to relax (and not with a phone/computer) is to coping with dysautonomia.

I came across this thread by searching "mono". I just had some questions for you guys to compare our experiences -- answer what you can/feel like. Like someone else here, I get low grade fevers and this was one of my first signs something was wrong after mono. I still was getting fevers as well as swollen glands/sore throats. Did those of you treating chronic EBV have a EBV DNA profile (I think that is what it is called)? It isn't the antibody test, it tests for actual levels of EBV in the blood. Did EBV/mono trigger your POTS? In my case there were always signs, but nothing that kept me from living life. Mono set it off. Ever since then, my throat glands, and even armpit/stomach glands swell. It seems as though my lymph nodes are a measure of how exhausted my body is. The more I do, the more they swell. It gets bad enough where I avoid any clothing touching my armpits. It can be felt, but it isn't typically large enough to see. Do you guys get this too? My throat hurts often and correlates with how much I've done in a given day/group of days. I've found an antiviral supplement called Andrographis. It seems to be helping. I didn't know if it was or not, but when I forgot it for 3 days in a row, my throat hurts so, so much!

I have a specialist (at Mayo Clinic) who is willing to work with/give guidance to my PCP.

Yes, I get this too. In my case it is a lack of proper circulation. Since I have been doing diaphragmatic breathing exercises, it has gotten a bit better.

I'm so sorry about your liver! I'm happy to hear you are finding a little bit of relief thanks to demanding they do some additional testing. I don't know if any of this will help in your situation, but I wanted to tell you that Zofran didn't do much for me (I still vomitted with it), but Phenegran did. The only down side is it makes you sleep A LOT and pretty much be a zombie. However, there was a time where that wasn't such a big deal to me because it was more important I was able to eat. I also benefit from taking ginger supplements when I'm getting nauseous (I used to take them twice a day as preventative measure). I also take digestive enzymes (I like Source Natrals Daily Essential Enzymes) to help break down the food in my stomach and help it get out of there more quickly and better digested. I hope things get better for you, keep us up to date.

I have had them my whole life, but they are worse since POTS. Magnesium helps keep them under control. Magnesium didn't help with my back. It was so bad that at the chiropractor, the spasming was more than their screen could handle. It was pretty painful. Through biofeedback, I was able to learn to "feel" muscles I used to not have a sense of and learn to relax them. Now most days (5 out of 7), my back doesn't hurt which is quite a relief.

I also thought I'd add that insurance did not cover this. They said it is experimental and mailed me a list of conditions they are willing to pay for this type of center for.

Yes she does. It isn't really so much as she thinks sympathetic overactivity is a cause as she things it is a "side effect" of POTS (my wording of her theory, not hers). If you look at what happens when we are in sympathetic mode, it is most of our symptoms. So while sympathetic overactivity doesn't cause POTS, POTS causes sympathetic overactivity which results in a majority of my symptoms. I of course cannot speak for her or the center, I am speaking based on my understanding from what I learned while there. She doesn't claim to know the root cause of all types of POTS or any of that. She doesn't claim to know exactly why my blood pools, she only claims that she can help alleviate it. It is not unlike many of our typical POTS doctors who offer up solutions but are unable to tell us the root cause. She claims to be able to help me control my ANS rather than it getting to choose to always be in sympathetic mode and me suffer all the negative consquences. I do feel she is closer to the root cause of my symptoms (maybe not necessarily my POTS) than any other doctor has been before. And honestly, while I'd love to know the root cause of my POTS (likely my EDS but then what's the root cause of that), I mostly just want to get on with my life without tons of symptoms holding me back! Lucky you with warm hands! Sometimes I think my hands are warm, but when I measure the temp they are 90 or so when the goal is 96-97. Although I am getting my hands warmed up, my feet are still FREEZING. In the program, you work on hands first because they are much easier to get proper circulation to than feet. Once I master my hands, I will then hook the thermometer to my toes to work on them. I will miss sticking my ice cold feet on my fiance's back to make him jump! There are also other ways sympathetic activity is measured such as muscle tension (EMG), GSR Galvanic Skin Response (sweat gland activity on hands), and heart rate variability. I used to have such terrible blood pooling that just sitting in a chair with my feet on the ground, my feet would turn very dark red or purple. With my improved circulation, it is much less of a problem. I can't stand too long yet, but the blood pools much slower when I do. When I am sitting, it doesn't pool enough for me to notice if it is unless it is the end of a very long, symptom inducing day. The first week there, I ditched the compression stockings and my Mom took me to the mall to buy a short sundress. She cried because she was so happy for me. I really can't quite believe it! I recently found out I have EDS type 3, so I really wasn't sure if this would help. Nonvenous return is not something I have struggled with, and if I do, I don't know about it, so if you could enlighten me on it a little maybe I could answer. Edited to change correct a mistake in describing GSR.

So basically thanks to POTS, our bodies are constantly in sympathetic mode. This causes a lot of unfortunate symptoms because cortisol is released which can hinder the immune system and we don't get enough time in parasympathetic mode which is where all sorts of important processes (like release of feel good hormones) tends to happen. Our body has this built in quirk/mechanism where when we practice diaphragmatic breathing, it tends to think all is good and relaxes into parasympathetic mode, but when we are chest breathing, thinks there is a threat and goes into sympathetic. If you look at babies, you realize we are born naturally pracitcing diaphragmatic breathing but tend to move to mostly chest breathing. I am learning to use this built in quirk to hyjack my body and FORCE it to go into parasympathetic mode. I measure this progress through heart rate variability training and hand temperature training. The results are amazing. I am new, so unless I am REALLY focusing on it, my hands tend to be freezing (in the 70s). During sessions (I am doing the home program now) my hands eventually get to my goal temperature (96-97 degrees). On "bad" days or high stress days, after 20 minutes, I still can only sometimes get it to 94, or not even above 90, so it is a process. During my initial sessions at the center, my face got all tingly. It was a weird sensation and I asked what was going on. The doctor informed me it was my body getting used to proper circulation/oxygen supply. Eventually, I'll be able to get my body into parasympathetic mode more and more easily. Right now I need silence and (typically) for my feet to be up. As I get better and better, I will challenge myself and train sitting up, with noise etc.... Eventually, (6 months to a year) it will come naturally and my circulation will be flowing to my peripheral blood vessels without me thinking about it. POTS won't be able to hyjack my body as successfully because I will be an expert relaxer. As of now, I still don't have as much energy as I'd like, get fatigued quickly, I still need to take it easy, and I still get symptoms, but it is getting better. The symptoms are slowly becoming less and less frequen and severe. I don't care if they only get .000005% better a day, I'm ecstatic for them to be moving in the right direction for once! Tachycardia isn't really much improved, especially when it comes to tolerating posture changes, but I am confident that improvement will come with time. I don't get lightheaded when going from sitting to standing so long as I take my breaths first, so that is neat. My pain (back/throat/joints/headaches) is never severe anymore when it used to be severe every single day. I went from fevers nearly every day to 3 or 4 fevers in 20 days. My nausea is much less frequent. Some days, I can exercise 6 minutes. Nothing has been able to give me improvements in the way this program has. Symptoms have always just had a bandaid put on them, they haven't been eliminated or controlled from the root. I'm sorry if this is scattered. Please ask for clarifications wherever you need them and also check out my blog where I am talking a lot about this. I just wanted to update you guys and give you the gist of everything like I promised I would. Here's a post on my first "victory"-- it truly is amazing. I cannot believe the success I am having. You know you're sick when you call ending your day extremely fatigue, in moderate pain, and having had a fever that day a success! I am well aware this progam isn't the answer for everyone, but personally, I am so happy I gave it a shot. http://lethargicsmiles.wordpress.com/2013/08/12/victory-2-id-be-equally-amazed-if-i-threw-this-kindle-and-it-floated/