Zero Gravity Idea

[Guest 12StringANSGuitar]

Since Astronauts suffer this temporary loss of their ANS when they return to Earths gravity, I wondered what anyone might think would occur, if you were to be exposed to such a circumstance(zero gravity).

I know in research it is often necessary to induce circumstances that may first seem contra-logical. Hence, Mice have been bred that have no Immune Systems, so that Geneticists can test some of their theories; and some are related to Immune responses.

So, I've a friend with POTS, who thinks that my idea to subject themself to Zero Gravity, would possibly make them worse or even kill them.

I really wouldn't want to make the call on something like this, but the thought occured to me that maybe something completely unexpected would occur, and maybe the ANS could be literally 're-set' itself under the circumstances I am indicating.

Am I embarrassing myself with this idea, or does anyone think this has possible merit?

I would hope that any of you who know a Professional practicing in this field, or maybe you might know someone at this Vanderbilt University, could relate this thought of mine.

Thankyou.

[Gena]

A risky, albeit very interesting idea. I'll have to bounce that one off one of the docs at Mayo next time I go. Hmmmm, I never thought of it from that perspective.

I always said I'd be the first to go to Mars if they ever decide to colonize it, but I never thought about being in the zero gravity situation and what it would do to the ANS (good or bad).

[steph37822]

oops

[Poohbear]

I was very conditioned prior to getting sick and now, nothing I've done really works. I've done at-home tilt training, exercise etc. I have good muscle tone and strength (surprisingly a lot considering all I've been through) but it has done nothing to keep me from passing out. Although, I do think if I became more deconditioned things would get worse.

I believe it was the Mayo clinic that came up with the pressurized space suits for astronauts to begin with. The tilt table test was also a result of astronauts and their brief ANS struggles upon re-entry to earth. NASA has studied this and some of the testing and therapies for us came out of those studies. I would think they've already considered these issues.

I've wondered before what would happen with someone with a messed up ANS system if they were to experience zero gravity totally. All I can say is I wouldn't sign up for a trip to the moon since my last airplane experience flying a short distance at a relatively low altitude nearly caused me to go into cardiac arrest!

[Guest 12StringANSGuitar]

A risky, albeit very interesting idea.    I'll have to bounce that one off one of the docs at Mayo next time I go. Hmmmm, I never thought of it from that perspective.

I always said I'd be the first to go to Mars if they ever decide to colonize it, but I never thought about being in the zero gravity situation and what it would do to the ANS (good or bad).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:;

O.K.....We all want take trips into outer space. Me too.

I'll encapsulate everyones answers here.

1. Seems that being in a swimming pool has some very positive effects for Steph(and I imagine it would be great for everyone to try out), but is 'zero gravity' being achieved by being in a pool?

*I'm not certain how astronauts train for 'zero gravity', but if the pool is it, obviously they don't experience what occurs to them when they fly out of our gravity and return.

2.Flying in a Jet plane, and the response consequent(and during), is not the same

as what a 'zero gravity' inducement would cause. Seems 'fear' creeps in, and is

causing the ANS symptoms to manifest greatly.

*I guess Mayo or Vanderbilt, or the other's on the forefront of trying to discover answers, possibly thought this idea, but then, who knows.

I'll tell ya, I'd definitely ask the question of them, just so there is certainty that it was considered.

*New Thought:

I am wondering if it is combination of both being out of our gravity and put back in, and also the passing thru of our magnetic and radiation belts(in upper atmospheres), that causes this phenomena.

Seems possible, since we are the 'body electric'. I think as I go folks.

feel well please!

have nice day,

Jeff

[steph37822]

oops

[Poohbear]

In terms of flying in planes...fears and/or anxieties do not play a role in aggravating my ANS issues. For me it is merely an issue of cabin pressure and the inability of my body to adjust quickly enough to altitude changes.

[corina]

Hi,

I find this very interesting. Last year there was a Dutch astronaut in space and he did some tests on bp. He was filmed while he did research (very heavy tilting ) in an Amsterdam hospital. I'm trying to get more information on it. This astronaut also is a doctor. I'm trying to find a possibility to email him and try to get him interested in answering some questions.

Corina

[dizzygirl]

interesting topic... !!!

I just want to add a me too.. on going to Outer sapce.. that would be so awesome!!

and yes.. i will agree with steph's comment on the pool and walking on our hands.. my fellow POtsy friend and I often joke about how nice it would be to walk around on our hands...LOL

[Guest 12StringANSGuitar]

I'm out on the road(working), just thought I'd check in quickly(very quick).

I was telling my friend in an e-mail how I think that the only way to comprehend this ANS better, is to put things into philosophical perspective as to the nature of our being within the Universe.

I really feel this ANS issue(although part of the body-neuro-electric-chemical mechanism), lies side by side with a philosophy of being.

Before I run. I'm thinking how a few of you indicate the up-side down thing(walking on hands in pool of water, etc.). I don't like to appear like I'm off in all directions, but I'm also thinking of Polarity shift that may effect your ANS, and cause your POTS issues.

I mean this is so unique that it almost appears that your condition, and that of the astronauts, have this paticular parallel.

I wonder if their POTS symptoms are do to confusion within their bio-preset, and not trauma/viral related.

gotta go.

later, Jeff (love these little guys)

[Sunfish]

jeff-

i'm another one who LOVES being in the water. always have, even before health issues &/or diagnosis. i feel better in the water than any other place. but i have to be very careful when i get out. and also not to overdo it while i'm in as i can end up paying for it.

re: the space/gravity issue, i don't have much to personally contribute other than that while being in space might be great, coming back would not make it worth in my book. even those in the best possible condition before have trouble with this so as someone with a not-so-great system there's no way i'd be up for it...

i thought though that you might be interested in Vanderbilt's Center for Space Physiology and Medicine, which is loosely connected with the Autonomic Dysfunction Research Center at Vanderbilt. Dr. David Robertson is the director of both. i've only looked at some of the site but thought you might like to peruse it.

the link is:

http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/gcrc/space/

melissa

[Rita]

I will ask the docs at vanderbilt for you ,but if they look at me weird I will have to explain this questions not for me ha ha ha. Th anks for the lovely question I'm sure this one will probably have them scatching their heads.

Rita s

[Guest 12StringANSGuitar]

Thankyou for the website link Sunfish, and good luck to you Rita(and thank all of you again for your responses here).

I notice you folks use this 'brain fog' term a bit, well I call mine brain freeze, and I would have wrote last night, but I couldn't hardly. Everything(thinking) slows down, and I sometimes go off in a stare. It seems consequent to either physical or mental stress. I get the bradiachardia thing, and if I work out too hard, things go goofy on me- like last night.

Anyway, this water thing is fascinating(all this is actually), so I'm wondering about someones post on the effect of weather. I mentioned how I function better on days when barometric pressure was very low. Usually that proceeds a storm.

So I'm thinking that when you are submerged in a pool, similar to what I thought the barometric pressure and humidity were possibly doing to others and myself(did anyone see the post I'm talking about- I forgot who wrote it, and don't have time now to look it up), I think the pool's waters are blocking out and dulling outside micro-wave and radio stimuli, thereby quieting the information that bombards our senses(and then, probably effects the ANS consequently).

I think the thing to test, would be to do something similar to what the Navy does, when they do the under-water tests with acoustics(the thing that makes whales and dolphins crazy).

If you were in this pool of water, and these sounds/acoustics were put into the water, and you were negatively affected(like the marine animals), then maybe that would prove that our ANS is hyper sensitive, and that water's buffer(absorbing capacity), serves as a block to this.

I could have said that better. Gotta go! have nice day.

*p.s., I'm against what the Navy is doing with this sound stuff, only because of what it does to the marine animals.

Hmmm, this whole thing makes me think of my pinging idea that I put in my very first post here.

We may be on to something.

[steph37822]

oops

[BuddyLeesWife]

Here's a really interesting link on space medicine and weightlessness. I've included the link to the weightlessness discussion here. Make sure you read the countermeasures section.

http://www.spacedoc.net/weightlessness.html

[Guest 12StringANSGuitar]

Steph,

I'm out on the road(doing my quickie break thing at a remote), so I'm just going to refer to this thing you wrote:

[Well there you go---not sure about all the dolphin/sound stuff]:

I intended to refer not only to the barometric effect, but also how I feel when there is snow all around. It absorbs sound, and much else(radio wave, etc).

I think we all all hyper-sensitive individuals, and possibly our ANS system is experiencing 'part' of the problem because of the hyper part.

Just as a medication will effect certain things that bear upon our senses(and the input coming in), I think that snow and barometric pressure is the same.

Being in the water, is like my snow I guess.

O.K.,, how about if you were walking thru the woods on a quiet 50 degree day?

There's obviously no water, but I would almost bet everyone here feels somewhat better in those circumstances. Here we have temperature, and the unique surrounding environment filtering into our senses(and probably our ANS).

I think there may be a correlation at hand that has to do with the 5 element thing,

but this just dawned on me while driving on the road.

I guess while in the woods, we'd have the 'earth' thing.

**Oh, the dolphin thing? The Navy was doing tests under water(possibly acoustical weapons, or sonar stuff), and accidentally they found that it was driving the marine animals to beach themselves(especially the whales and dolphins).

I guess I was thinking about the sensory effect idea, but right now....got to get back to work!!

later I will respond to your experience as a child.

thankyou,

Jeff

[BuddyLeesWife]

Another link to research being done by the National Space Biomedical Research Institute. The following is from the project titled Mechanics of Cardiovascular Deconditioning:

We have developed an external non-invasive mechanical prototype device, in conjunction with the Applied Physics Laboratory of JHU, that peristaltically pumps blood from lower extremities and abdomen towards the heart to maintain stroke volume and cardiac output during an orthostatic challenges. A notice of invention and non-disclosure has been filed with Johns Hopkins University

There are lots of interesting research projects on this site.

http://www.nsbri.org/Research/

[steph37822]

oops

[Guest 12StringANSGuitar]

Here's a really interesting link on space medicine and weightlessness.  I've included the link to the weightlessness discussion here.  Make sure you read the countermeasures section. 

http://www.spacedoc.net/weightlessness.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:

Thankyou B.L.W.,

I'll check out that and the other one you offered.

[Guest 12StringANSGuitar]

I am nearsighted with astigmatism, but rarely wear the glasses or contacts because my vision isn't horrible, I just get headaches with fine print materials, or the overheads I had to read in college.

When I was younger I walked with my head high, I am extroverted with an enormous amount of self confidence and high self esteem--it's sick really! So I didn't hang my head, had a lot of friends, played varsity sports, then intramural in college until POTS et al, hit my soph. year. Now I do look down when I walk because of my EDS I am prone to tripping and need to see where I'm going.

My gait was off as a kid--because of the EDS I am prone to subluxations and dislocations I used to twist my ankle multiple times daily, then dislocated my knees, it wasn't a huge deal, and didn't slow me down, until it became a major problem last year. But  I did have corrective foot surgery when I was young and was bow-legged, my dad said I walked with my legs in front of me a lot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:

Hi Steph,

I'm confused on something. You do have POTS right? But when you are in the pool, you just don't experience its effects at that time. I know thats like splicing hairs off an atom, but its not like the POTS is gone.

All I can think on everyones experience in the water is the idea of an internal gyroscope at work(one of the biological pre-sets; which is also part of ANS), and that it either becomes confused with your being in the water, or is instantly re-set to its default position(if we can call it that).

The other thought, is that our 'water nature/element' factors, come into being, and that water becomes almost like a womb(perfect environment) for us to be in, and our ANS knows this automatically(again enabling things to re-set to normal).

I think being in water, is like plugging us back in or something.

As to our sharing common traits or experiences, I'm looking at what you wrote here:

________________________________________________________________

[i am nearsighted with astigmatism, but rarely wear the glasses or contacts because my vision isn't horrible, I just get headaches with fine print materials, or the overheads I had to read in college.]:

*Now on a graph, we wouldn't necessarily need to use our names, our have the personal context of things. As the graph stats grew, then we could choose to pare off a paticular item that is most common, or has a strikingly interesting aspect about it.

At that point, we'd all be relating our personal stories behind those items.

Well anyway(since no graph is present)... I am also near-sighted, and probably have an astigmatism from looking at the computer too much.

I also am somewhat photo-sensitive, but not too much a problem.

*I think here(with glasses), I was looking to see what % of us had vision issues when we were children, and also, I wanted to see if a vision issue developed consequent to ANS problems.

_________________________________________________________________

[When I was younger I walked with my head high, I am extroverted with an enormous amount of self confidence and high self esteem--it's sick really! So I didn't hang my head, had a lot of friends, played varsity sports, then intramural in college until POTS et al, hit my soph. year. Now I do look down when I walk because of my EDS I am prone to tripping and need to see where I'm going.]:

*I think I was somewhat insecure as a child, and I think I walked with my head looking down. But, that could have developed because my eye-sight problems were not un-covered until the 5th grade! How, I will never know, because they always tested you in school every year. Go figure that one .

I think I probably looked down unconsciously, in order to guide myself while walking; and because, I have a scar on my chin, from tripping alot when I was a young kid. I guess having been pigeon toed and a bit bow-legged(and bad sight),

had me falling a bit here and there. (mom wiping my tears emoticon).

*Again, I think my thoughts were whether as children, had we chiropractic related problems that possibly caused disruptions in how our ANS functioned then(even if it was un-noticeable at that early stage), and or how the cranial nerve messaging system inter-acted with the whole body.

Hmmm.... I fell on my chin a few times as a child. I wonder if that trauma could have done something?

In fact, trauma, or shock to the head(especially the temple, the peak, and chin/jaw area), was something I was especially wondering if this was something shared by all(while a youth, or even as adult).

____________________________________________________________________

[My gait was off as a kid--because of the EDS I am prone to subluxations and dislocations I used to twist my ankle multiple times daily, then dislocated my knees, it wasn't a huge deal, and didn't slow me down, until it became a major problem last year. But I did have corrective foot surgery when I was young and was bow-legged, my dad said I walked with my legs in front of me a lot. ]:

*O.K., well I already mentioned my issues as a child(pigeon toed and slight bow-legged), and I also wore a brace between my shoes up till about 3 or 4 years old.

I'm trying to think exactly why I thought this all possibly important, other than the idea of being properly grounded electrically(like from reflexology- if I understood their theory correctly). I think its like the chiropractic thing, and the distortions

that would result if you were not 'aligned' correctly from your base point(feet to earth).

Maybe its also like the water effect(water element) where you feel better in it.

So 'earth' connection(earth element), is similar?

You folks must think I'm really strange

I still bet, that stress issues is a common thing involved in this disorder, and stress can manifest upon us in many ways.

Like Environmental stress from pollutants being absorbed into us daily.

I'd also love to know(without your names- for anonymity purposes), if anyone of us were big prescription takers prior to your ANS problems(another potential pollutant to our organs, and other things).

thankyou much Steph

Jeff

[Guest 12StringANSGuitar]

You have somewhat of a philosophical approach to life eh Jeff?

I don't really think snow is so much like barometric pressure because when barometric pressure changes, I get serious migraines? When snow melts--I get happy! 

I feel wonderful walking through quiet wooded areas on 50 degree days, we have an area like that I take my dog (part of Ohio State Univ. branch for Agric. research in my hometown) and it's wonderful, only problems occur when I trip on tree roots and dislocate or sprain body parts! (sorry for my sense of humor!  )

Yes, if you did a poll I think you would find, many of us have heightened senses (I think I have hearing LOSS though) but I'm very sensitive to smells, and sounds, strong smells make me want to throw up, and strong sounds make me very angry--literally. I can sadly understand the beaching of the whales and dolphins because of the Navy testing, because I cringe thinking about something like that happening!

One last childhood answer i didn't give--my handwriting is ridiculous! I basically print everything now, and if I'm printing for too long, or too fast, even that starts to fade, but cursive, illegible. I have 2 older sisters, healthy, with perfect handwriting, each of theirs could be font on a computer, and there are many jokes made at my expense about this situation! 

Hope you had a great day, take care, that comment about snow being your water made me smile!  It's always nice to have something!

-Steph

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:

Hi Steph once again!(I'm catching up a bit),,,,

I'm glad you indicated your handwriting problems. All this is from the neuro muscular(so they say- but some think its all psuedo garbage; I don't).

Again, with a graph, we'd have instant stats appear. But like handwriting analysis itself, even if we all shared this one trait, it wouldn't necessarily mean beans; you must have a whole lot of common traits to add up, before you get a clear picture that might indicate that we have something vaguely scientific going.

I probably mentioned that I also have to print, and that my signature is difficult for me to write(when I have to). I literally jerk my hand on my letter w, and my letter f is a big problem. My 'end strokes'(last movement to the word you're writing), sometimes zip across the page about 2inches, or I will even tear the page with this stroke of the pen. It is supposedly part anger, frustration, lack of control, and a few other things too(which I don't know, because it was only a small side hobby for me).

I do know that heart problems can be seen with the jerky like movements, but they could mean other things too.

*With regard to sights and smells, and 'heightened senses', I think this is all Limbic System related.

I repeat myself alot(or it could be the person that I know who has a dysautonomia that I told this to), but the cereal aisle in a supermarket really throws me off!

Any aisle with too much variety and colors(let alone the bright lights above), is too much stimulis for me sometimes(not all the time). And if it is too much, I can start staring, and feel spaced .

See there,,, when you're in the woods, you're more connected to the earth elements, and the woods act as a filter to the background stimulis from all the technological stuff that bombards our senses.

Let me ask; Did you go see the March of the Penguins? How'd you feel just watching that?

Lets see,..,, the Penguins were in an environment that had factors of 'earth', 'water'(even if it was frozen ), and the Pole of the earth.

I'd almost bet that you folks would feel something unique if you could experience all three directly, and not just the visual from the movie(though I think you could possibly experience a Limbic response just by watching).

gotta go do things,

later,

Jeff

[yogini]

Jeff,

The benefit of being in the water is just the effect of gravity. People with POTS have trouble in an upright position because gravity pulls our blood down, our blood vessels may not constrict properly and our hearts have to work extra hard to keep it up. Under water, out gravity isn't pulling our blood down so strongly, so out POTS symptoms may not be as bad.

I think most people have a lot of questions when they first join this board about why this happened to them. If you haven't already, you should check out the great info on potsplace.com and NDRF. I think the main causes are genetics, pregnancy/childbirth, accident/trauma and post-illness. Most of us on this board fall into one or more of these categories. I'm not sure that electrical waves are related. And some of the other things you mention, like gait and visual problems are symptoms of POTS, but not causes. So you're right that there are probably a lot of people on this board that had these symptoms growing up. Of coure there is a lot of research still going on about POTS and we will have more info about what causes POTS over time.

Keep asking questions!

-Rita

[Guest 12StringANSGuitar]

Thankyou Rita,

I will check out potsplace.com, and have already perused ndrf.

[Poohbear]

I'm pasting the below in case you have not seen it yet and find it of any interest to you....

Artificial gravity: a possible countermeasure for post-flight orthostatic intolerance.

Moore ST, Diedrich A, Biaggioni I, Kaufmann H, Raphan T, Cohen B.

Department of Neurology, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, NY 10029, USA. steven.moore@mssm.edu

Four payload crewmembers were exposed to sustained linear acceleration in a centrifuge during the Neurolab (STS-90) flight. In contrast to previous studies, otolith-ocular reflexes were preserved during and after flight. This raised the possibility that artificial gravity may have acted as a countermeasure to the deconditioning of otolith-ocular reflexes. None of the astronauts who were centrifuged had orthostatic intolerance when tested with head-up passive tilt after flight. Thus, centrifugation may also have helped maintain post-flight hemodynamic responses to orthostasis by preserving the gain of the otolith-sympathetic reflex. A comparison with two fellow Neurolab orbiter crewmembers not exposed to artificial gravity provided some support for this hypothesis. One of the two had hemodynamic changes in response to post-flight tilt similar to orthostatically intolerant subjects from previous missions. More data is necessary to evaluate this hypothesis, but if it were proven correct, in-flight short-radius centrifugation may help counteract orthostatic intolerance after space flight. c2005 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

PMID: 15835033 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]