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Sunshinegirl

Low Pyruvate Level

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How low is low is really low? I am not asking for "clinical" interpretation but just your experience with this test and its relation to lactic acid. Have you had this? What did it mean for you?

Thanks

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I don't think I've ever had that test(or lactic acid). Just curious what the test was drawn for? What is your doctor looking for in relation to POTS?

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Thanks for your response....its ok..I feel the same way when I don't have much to add but feel for the person and want to know where they are coming from! In the journey to understand myself, I have come to understand many other people with very different issues along the way. I feel blessed to know their story and even more blessed when I can pass on the knowledge I have gained as ideas to ponder and ask about.

To my knowledge, a metabolic or genetic issue....I have several other markers for it. my pyruvate is low and lactic acid is not super high but on the high end of high....but I do all I can to keep my lactic acid build up at bay. I just don't know what pyruvate is specifically and how to put it in control. I work every day to keep an alkaline environment in my system and everything as balanced as possible.

Anyone know what Im talking about?

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I believe they check a pyruvate and lactic acid ratio at times when looking for mitochondrial disease. I had the tests run and both were abnormal but can't remember exact numbers.

I have looked into these a little bit because it seems to me to be related to the burning I get in my muscles with any type of activity. I also think it may explain the shortness of breath and breath hunger I get at times since your carbon dioxide levels change and breathing rates change when you start getting too acidic.

I have tried some supplements to balance pH but didn't have great success with them. I've had better results with supplements that help the methylation cycle and ATP/mitochondrial function. When those things are more balanced I have fewer of the other symptoms like muscle pain.

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Interesting. My lactic acid levels were fine but pyruvate levels were low. I just don't know how low is "low". All I know is that they should be at least a 2. I think I am not acidic because I eat and drink things every day that create a low PH in the body. Some think that acidic food makes the body acidic. I have found this to be partly true but not always. I drink pickle juice for the salt and the alkaline nature of vinegar. I also have lemon water. I get eczema if I become acidic. Also, I have no refined sugar or processed food. If I have grains they are ancient grains. Rice and wheat are not good for me. Also, I cannot have tomato sauce. I can have fresh tomatoes if that is the only acidic or high histamine food I eat in a day.

I had not linked the muscle pain/burning to lactic acid aside from what is normal when lifting weights. But now that you mention it, when I do eat bad, I have all kinds of muscle twitching and pain.

I have yet to start anything for methylation because I am new to this probable cause. I am still in the phase of doing a bunch of testing and did not want to skew typical findings....but you know what...Iv lived long enough with this and I don't think I want to wait for Drs. to catch on. Can it hurt to treat with supplements? I don't think so. Worst thing is, I waste money and feel bad for a day...and then decide that it is not for me. So far what I have read is that the body needs SAMe. and B vitamins. I already take all the B's and have high B12 levels. What supplements have you tried that have worked?

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Thanks. I looked at the reviews and thought it was worth a try. Not too expensive either.

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I have yet to start anything for methylation because I am new to this probable cause. I am still in the phase of doing a bunch of testing and did not want to skew typical findings....but you know what...Iv lived long enough with this and I don't think I want to wait for Drs. to catch on. Can it hurt to treat with supplements? I don't think so. Worst thing is, I waste money and feel bad for a day...and then decide that it is not for me. So far what I have read is that the body needs SAMe. and B vitamins. I already take all the B's and have high B12 levels. What supplements have you tried that have worked?

I was slow getting on to all this as well, mainly because I was so brain foggy I couldn't understand most of the research. My ME/CFS doc was the one who recommended getting the first MTHFR testing done as he says he is finding 95% of his patients have this mutation which is MUCH higher than the normal average population. After that I did 23&Me and NutrEval but still took forever to try to figure out what my results meant.

One of the supplements that has helped me the most is NT Factor which provides mito support. That was one where I could literally feel a difference within days of starting it. I have a whole list of about 40 supplements I take (in addition to a ton of meds) but I don't take them all every day and have made myself MUCH sicker at times by getting doses wrong, even when following my doc's recommendations. Don't think it's something you should mess with lightly.

I know it sounds wacko and I had a hard time buying into it myself, but I finally gave up and looked into doing self muscle testing with my supplements. You can google it and find youtube videos on how to perform it. I'm still not sure I believe it really works, but I can't argue with the fact that I have done much better using supplements since I have started testing them every day this way. Here is a link to one of the easier videos (3 min).

(Because YouTube runs ads, they may delete the link, in which case Google Mystic Mandy self muscle testing.)

Of course you have to use common sense as well. Also try not to control the outcome by wanting a test to come up positive or negative. And as she says, you need to be well hydrated and have electrolytes in balance before doing the test. On days where I'm really POTSie, I find my testing is generally not very reliable so I have to go more with intuition and common sense.

It took me several months of doing this before I felt comfortable with the testing and like I said, I'm still not sure I truly believe it, but I am doing better so it's hard to argue with success.

Hope this helps.

Edited by Chaos

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I have low pyruvate level .01 but normal lactic. I have chronic burning/stiffness in my legs, feet, hands, arms - POTS and overall chronic fatigue. Pyruvate has been tested 3 times - all three times .01. Multiple doctors have said they don't think its significant. My question is - then why are you testing for it?

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What I have learned so far ...which could be wrong...is that a low level is indicative of cells not being able to effectively complete the "energy" cycle. This seem to be true whether or not the lactic acid is normal or not. The body does not break down key nutrients needed by the cells to effectively complete this process.

based on the way my test was done, I cant make heads or tails from the results. All it says is below 1. It does not say how far below 1. For this reason, I cannot compare the ratio as indicated in the articles above. Natops, what was your lactic acid levels? can you make the comparison?

I got the above supplement and will be trying it starting today and will document any difference I feel. I will be doing what Chaos suggested.

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Pyruvic Acid = 0.1 Range – 0.3 – 0.7 MG/DL

Lactic Acid = 0.7 Range – 0.5 – 2.2 MMOL/L

Pyruvic Acid = 0.1 Range 0.3 – 0.7 mg/dl

Lactic Acid = 7.9 Range 4.5 – 19.8 mg/dl

Pyruvic Acid = 0.6 mg/dl Range 0.7-1.4 mg/dL

I also have an autoimmune channelopathy which is causing all my problems (N-type Calcium Channel Antibody)

Do you think this low pyruvic is what is causing our muscles to ache? Maybe I should try a Mitochondria Supplement. I am in so much chronic pain :(

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Disclaimer: I am not a scientist...but I did do well in school.

What I do know is that build up of lactic acid causes muscle pain. When you work out your muscles release lactic acid and it is that build up that makes you sore after working out. This also pertains to some of us when we are not working out because for one reason or another we don't clear the lactic acid.

One reason I have read a bit about might be the process by which your muscles work. It all starts with a signal from your brain that starts the calcium explosion in your myofilaments (sp?) This leads to the filaments changing shape and getting shorter...making a contraction. When this process is done, they elongate and the calcium exits and muscles relax. So if you have an issue with moving calcium, this could be one of the reasons you are in such pain.

Do you have enough potassium? How do you balance your electrolytes? What kind of calcium do you use? there is a difference in the citrate and carbonate versions in uptake or bioavailability.

All I know about pyruvic levels is that when they are low your other cellular process are or could be dampened. It has something to do with mitochondria because they are the movers and shakers of the intercellular metabolism. I need to read over this again as it is usually only spoken about in relation to lactic acid.

One cool mitochondria fact is that they have their own DNA. Imagine that, trillions of creatures that are not you, make up you. Add all that together with your gut microbiome and all the trillions of organisms keeping your skin healthy and one must wonder who is "me"? Blows my mind.

Keep being amazed.

Thanks for the values. I guess my must have been in reference to being less than 0.1

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Your last post offered more knowledge then 20 neurologist over the last 4 years combined have ever offered me. I just take 600mg calcium supplement (carbonate) daily. Don't notice any help from it. Your lactic acid explanation is very interesting. My muscles constantly feel like I just did a major work out a few hours ago and that stiffness and pain is starting to kick in.... except in my case I didn't work out and they always feel like that.

Interestingly the only relief to my muscle pain is going to the gym and doing a light weight lifting. Unfortunately I can't do much because I have POTS and exercise intolerance....but for about one hour after a light workout on the weigh machines my muscles feel almost normal for about an hour. Then the pain really hits me. Resting...waking up in the morning... is the worst. Hot baths and massage are the only relief but that is just for a few minutes. Do you think I should try the citrate calcium?

Disclaimer - I am not a scientist... and I did not do well in school. :mellow:

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I can't speak to the pyruvate/lactic acid issues. But, I do have a lot of skin and muscle pain and my geneticist has me take Epsom salt baths. It a fine balance betweeen taking a warm bath and not getting PotSie but the Epsom salts allow your body to absorb magnesium which helps ease the pain. She told me to do 20 minute Epsom salt foot baths if I feel like I can't tolerate the full bath but need the magnesium. You have to put enough salts in the bath that they stop dissolving. That's how you know you have a completely saturated solution of the salts. It does help some. I should probably do it more often.

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About calcium carbonate...from what I have learned...this is not the most bioavailable form. See if you can get it in a citrate version. Perque offers great pharmaceutical grade versions of what you need.

If you read about the way it is absorbed and used, you will find that you have to add vitamin D and magnesium to the mix for it to be at prime absorption because these all work as a team. (this is one reason they fortify American milk) It cant hurt to add potassium rich foods such as avocado or banana when taking supplements. This rounds out the main electrolyte needs for the most part.

I do great with avocado because I can salt it.

If your levels are normal or low...this might be a good idea. Since these supplements are usually water soluble, you will likely excrete what you cant use. BUT it is always good to know your numbers before starting a regimen. Also, just because blood levels are normal does not always mean your body can use what is floating around. (absorption issues) One main thing to consider is your parathyroid or thyroid conditions when using calcium supplements because too much calcium could cause kidney deposits and stones. So....know your levels.

The reason for this has much to do with absorption and the rest of the process that goes on in the cell after the twitch that causes the muscle to contract. The ATP process (energy) and other processes cannot proceed as usual without these vital electrolytes. Things break down fast if all the "players" are not lined up to bat so to speak.

High Five the Epsom Salt baths! They are awesome because this "salt" is partly magnesium that can be absorbed through the skin. This is the pain reliving mechanism that starts the "game" back up again and can assist in removing lactic acid hence the pain relief that occurs.

Ps. if you usually find a vitamin in a pill form it is usually water soluble and more easily discarded if taken in excess. If it comes in a gel cap that has an oil base, it is fat soluble. You can hurt yourself with too much fat soluble supplements as they will store in your organs and fat. There are exceptions to this basic concept of course...so know what you are doing. In the case of recommended amounts...this varies from country to country and regulations. In the US, it can vary from where you live because we are so vast in size. The more north and light skinned, the more vitamin D you may need in the cold months.

There are many indicators of needing to supplement. I find that these show up in my skin and mood first. My best advice has come from Doctors of Osteopathy vs MD's. I have also found a few good chiropractors who dive into holistic treatment that have had great advise. If you don't have either, then do you research on respectable sites. I only use google scholar for my information but other places like the Mayo clinic can also offer general guidance.

Its all about them salts, them very salty salts, no achies...ooooo...(that's a song parody)

Disclaimer: I am no more educated than yesterday !

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On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2015 at 7:45 PM, Natops said:

Pyruvic Acid = 0.1 Range – 0.3 – 0.7 MG/DL

Lactic Acid = 0.7 Range – 0.5 – 2.2 MMOL/L

Pyruvic Acid = 0.1 Range 0.3 – 0.7 mg/dl

Lactic Acid = 7.9 Range 4.5 – 19.8 mg/dl

Pyruvic Acid = 0.6 mg/dl Range 0.7-1.4 mg/dL

I also have an autoimmune channelopathy which is causing all my problems (N-type Calcium Channel Antibody)

Do you think this low pyruvic is what is causing our muscles to ache? Maybe I should try a Mitochondria Supplement. I am in so much chronic pain :(

I also had a low pyruvate level 0.1 and normal lactic acid (0.9) level. I also had a calcium channel antibody n-type level of 0.07. My doctor re-drew the paraneoplastic panel so I'm waiting to see what the second test says. I have researched paraneoplastic panels and have some anxiety about this test result.

I'm waiting to see my POTS specialist next month to see what my next step is. Any advice for me?

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@agregory757, I’ve seen dozens and dozens of doctors (including Mayo) concerning my N-type AB.  Unfortunately I haven’t found an answers to the cause, a diagnosis, or treatment.  Usually an aggressive search for cancer (normally CT of lungs for SCLC….but it can be other cancers as well) is ordered.  If no cancer found, routine scans for 3-5 years.  No cancer puts you into the autoimmune category of unknown cause.  Besides POTS what are your other symptoms?

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I had a CTA back in April when I was admitted to the hospital for "cardiac issues." They originally thought I may have had a PE but ended up being POTS.  So I'm wondering if they will repeat the CT. I haven't heard anything from my POTS specialist, and I'll see him September 15 for a review of all my results and a treatment plan.

 

I'm tired all of the time, even after sleeping for 9+ hours every night. I originally started with GI symptoms... Acid reflux constantly, and becoming very breathless after eating any "large" meal. They were thinking I had gastroparesis, but my 4-hour gastric emptying study came back normal. Still have pretty bad acid reflux, but unsure why aside from autonomic issues. I get brain fog, all the typical autonomic symptoms, and have a resting pulse of 94+ and even higher when standing. I've been taking propranolol but still running tachy. I get pain in my arms and legs and have really sensitive skin which is sometimes painful to touch, I'm awaiting my biopsy results for SFN. I had an abnormal QSART with very low output on my arms, and no sweating on my feet. I have pretty extreme heat intolerance and can't go outside at all if it's over 90. I had a 3 hour glucose tolerance test and a blood sugar of 38 on the third hour, so I'm also unsure what that means for me.

 

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On 8/19/2016 at 8:38 AM, agregory757 said:

I also had a low pyruvate level 0.1 and normal lactic acid (0.9) level. I also had a calcium channel antibody n-type level of 0.07. My doctor re-drew the paraneoplastic panel so I'm waiting to see what the second test says. I have researched paraneoplastic panels and have some anxiety about this test result.

I'm waiting to see my POTS specialist next month to see what my next step is. Any advice for me?

Hi AGregory, what did you ever find out in regard to the low pyruvic acid level?  I have the same value and based on your location, am guessing we have the same physician treating us (I’m In Chesapeake, VA). Also have very similar symptoms. If you’d be willing to share I would really appreciate it! 

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Hi VAlady85, as you are answering an older post (over a year) I'd suggest to contact agragory757 via personal message

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