Microbiome, Bacteria, And Autoimmune Diseases

[Lemons2lemonade]

Researchers are learning that perhaps the plethora of naturally occuring bacteria within our bodies may lead to a new perspective on autoimmune diseases. http://mpkb.org/home/publications/marshall_dnaday2011

"Thousands of species live in the cells and the tissues of the human body." It is thought that some bacterial forms, ebv also does this, are knocking out a nuclear receptor or vdr( vitamin d receptor) in order to inhibit the immune process and prolong their life/reactivate. The human body exhibits vdr dysfunction in depression, ms, arthritis, lupus, sarcoidosis, thyroiditis, diabetes, dementia, autism, and schizohrenia. In addition estrogen reception beta is also knocked down. Estrogen receptor beta is responsible for the vdr precursor protein.

[ramakentesh]

Marshall is a maverick and I can think of very few doctors that prescribe to his 'theories' which are often poorly supported by research.

That being said, moleculur mimicry is implicated in many autoimmune diseases - pathogens that release proteins that mimic various histocompatibility proteins in some people tricking the body perhaps into attack self targets and ignoring the pathogens.

[Lemons2lemonade]

So marshalls research is inaccurate, but the idea of pathogen based autoimmune diseases is also supported by other research?

[ramakentesh]

Yeah its definately supported. Check out Molecular Mimicry. But Marshall is out there. Sunlight is the biggest trigger etc.

[issie]

I was just talking to someone about the connections of sunlight and the effects it has on the body. I hope they chim in here and write what they just PM'd to me. It really explains allot in regards to what sunlight does to even NE levels and the connections to NO and vasodilation etc. I hope he will explain it. He can better than me.

Issie

[HopeSprings]

I hope your research says that sunlight helps or I will be really confused. We've been having beautiful warm sunny weather here. Yesterday I was outside for about 2 hours - I went out feeling super dizzy and came back in feeling somewhat better. Vitamin D? Or what's this about NE and NO?

[POTLUCK]

Hi all,

Issie just aked if I would come to this thread to explain some sunlight connections I have come across.

Regarding the above I have heard of the "Marshall Protocol" if this isthe same guy, and would have to agree with Rama's opinion, if it is that guy that he is a bit of a maverick.

I was also recently referred to a guy who's entire site is about deficiency of NO which he feels is a cause of Autism and many things. One thing I learned is nitrates are converted to nitrites via bacteria in the mouth and stomach. ( For example in spinach or Issies favorite beet juice )

The sun seems to increase NE and Epi via the iPRGc cells in the eye which connect to the SCN of the hypothalmus. Epi has a circadian rythm without the sun, but NE does not. Secondly it affects vitamin D via longer term exposure to the skin. This affects and is affected by the Renin-Angiotensin-Aldosterone system. Third sunlight causes a rapid increase in NO which is at least partially mediated through infared or heat on the skin and possibly tetrahydrobiopterin.

I developed dizziness and brain fog type symptoms 2 years ago while already on Propranolol, that were relieved by direct sunlight, and worse on cloudy days. I have done an incredible amount of research on sunlight and its effects. As Issie was asking about my profile and the sun relieving my symptoms that is why I noted some of these things. I am not sure if they are of any help to this thread but hope so. The sun does not have the same effect on me now, as I have been off Propranolol for some time diagnosed with POTS and am back on Propranolol. ( I am guessing up and downregulation of B1 & B2 receptors has changed my baseline. )

[issie]

Thanks Potluck. I'm sure you'll have more questions.

But, there you go again with the BEETS - Ucky!!!!! LOL

Issie

[ramakentesh]

TRUE. If someone had too much no they could use mouthwash to help by killing bacteria. No is implicated in pots both too much and too little.

[POTLUCK]

Naomi,

I am not sure it is just a helping or not helping POTS thing as it has multiple effects. For me the NO ( nitric oxide ) increase might be good. The Epi ( Epinephrine) and NE (Norepinephrine ) could be good or bad. For someone with a different subset of POTS that affect might be different. I am glad you got to enjoy some sun though. Not sure on the vitamin D.

I suspect that sunlight feels good partially because it speeds the heart a little and relaxes the vessals sending more blood in a "normal" ( meaning without POTS ) person.

For the rest of us its "potluck"

What is strange for me is having spent countless hours in the bright sun over the past 2 years ( as it relieved my symptoms ) why did my vitamin D level just come back at 30.7 ( barely low normal ) ?

This is why my picture is of the sunrise. I realize this sun relieving POTS thing is wierd but it is true.

[issie]

I have reasons to not be in the sun - vitiligo. But, have to have the sun or else I get depressed. If it ups NE levels - then, that might explain the severe tacky and other POTS issues I get while in it. But, on the flip side - I feel like I need more NO and when I have MCAD issues, nitroglycerin is a great help. I also, need to vasodilate (as I'm feeling much better doing that, now) and I like the heat better than the cold. So, it seems to make sense that the sunlight could help us figure things out about ourselves in regard to our own puzzles.

Issie

[POTLUCK]

Rama,

I was told that Licorice increase NO also. What dose of Inderal do you take? Do you have to take it frequently?

[issie]

What is strange for me is having spent countless hours in the bright sun over the past 2 years ( as it relieved my symptoms ) why did my vitamin D level just come back at 30.7 ( barely low normal ) ?

Well, I'm taking high amounts of Vit D. and my levels are not coming up very well either. So, it would be interesting to know if the Vitamin D issue has some sort of connection to renin/aldosterone levels. If there is some sort of connection between the two.

I know you don't know your renin/aldoesterone levels yet - but, would be interesting to see if that could be a possible connection.

Anyone, ever read about a connection between the two?

[ramakentesh]

The connection between low NO and elevated angiotensin II is only conjectural. Other research groups found normal nitric oxide responses in POTS patients. All that has currently been demonstrated is that a subset of POTS patients have elevated serum ang II and perhaps reduced ace 2 activity as a genetic defect. One group believe high Ang II = low neuronal nitric oxide, another group think high ang ii = decreased ang II vasoconstriction and compensatory sympathetic activation plus pooling in stomach.

That being said, some patients do seem to respond to ARBs and more importantly, several POTs patients I know of or correspond with have found improvement from taurine, L-arginine or other nitric oxide donors.

licorice actually decreases release and activation of endothelial nitric oxide and also reduces expression of iNOS which is immune system nitric oxide activity. I also acts to increase blood pressure through volume increases and acts as a weak sodium channel blocker. I take it daily and it helps but after two months or so tolerance is an issue with it.

I often crave sunlight but vitamin D is normal. Feel better after being in it for a long time.

[issie]

With any herbs, you are supposed to give yourself a break from them and then restart them. So, maybe your body is just telling you this. Maybe, you can find another one to take while you take a break from licorice and switch off.

Issie

[POTLUCK]

Rama,

I thought that Dr. Stewart showed that there were 3 categories of flow in POTS patients and that the average low flow POTS patient has considerably higher Angiotensin 2. (89±20 vs 32±4 ng/L), http://www.nymc.edu/fhp/centers/syncope/angiotensin_in_pots.htm

but also that blocking Angiotensin 2 type 1 receptors caused vasodilation through a mechanism that was inhibited by a nitric oxide inhibitor, suggesting that at least on a local level the vasodilation of Ang 2 type 1 receptor blockade has to do with nitric oxide. http://ajpheart.physiology.org/content/294/1/H466.short My understanding is the Ang 2 type 2 receptor may increase NO as seen in the picture here http://www.nymc.edu/fhp/centers/syncope/he%20Metabolism%20of%20Ang-II%20by%20angiotensin%20converting%20enzyme-II%20(ACE-II)%20is%20defective%20in%20Low%20Flow%20POTS%20causing%20a%20reduction%20of%20the%20vasodilator%20Ang-(1-7).htm

I have found several articles suggesting Angiotensin 2 affects NO by researchers other than stewart but the entire system is clearly a very complex one in which NO affects all sorts of things including NE itself. I am trying to understand some of it.

[issie]

Potluck,

Just wondering how the Lorsartan is working so far? Can you tell any differences?

Issie

[POTLUCK]

25 BID now might be improvement, might not, hard to say as the days vary alot. I am not worse, and no major side effects.

Thank you for asking.

[issie]

25 BID now might be improvement, might not, hard to say as the days vary alot. I am not worse, and no major side effects.

Thank you for asking.

So far, so good - that's a good sign - no major side effects. I've been told before to see what day 11 brings - because if you make it through day 10 - MAYBE, things will continue on in the right direction. Hoping so, for you.

Issie