Blood Volume Deficiencies And Traditional Chinese Medicine

[RichGotsPots]

Seems that traditional chinese medicine refers to blood issues as Blood Stasis. Blood volume deficiency falls under that term.

I found this interesting note about Blood Volume Deficiencies and wonder how valid it is: http://www.acupuncture.com/herbs/bloodstagn.htm

"Note for students: "The Liver stores Blood ... when a person moves, Blood goes to the channels, when at rest it goes to the Liver." (Maciocia, Foundations, p. 78) When you're asleep or resting, the Blood collects and is stored in the Liver. When you're active, the Blood is sent out to nourish and moisten the muscles. The Liver has a lot of control over the volume of Blood in the body. There are people who have blood volume problems. Lab technicians have problems finding veins and getting blood samples from these people. The people themselves tend to suffer from feeling weak, fainting, etc. "When the Blood flows to the appropriate places in the body at the appropriate times, it will nourish the necessary tissues, and therefore give us energy." (Maciocia, p. 78) When someone has Blood volume problems, suspect and rule in or out Liver Blood Deficiency. Keep in mind that Liver Blood Deficiency can trigger Blood Stasis which can manifest as headaches, some cases of fainting, etc. Liver imbalance isn't the only thing that can cause or contribute to Blood volume problems, but it's the most common underlying Root.

Also, Blood volume problems "indirectly influences our resistance to external pathogenic factors. If this Liver function is normal, the skin and muscles will be well nourished by Blood and be able to resist attacks of exterior pathogenic factors." (Maciocia, p. 78) Remember the question why some people are so much more susceptible to Exterior Pernicious Evils than others are? The number one cause is weak Protective Qi. Yang Deficiency and generalized debility also can be a cause. Add to this a consideration that Liver Blood may be Deficient, and indirectly causing the increased susceptibility."

[firewatcher]

Unfortunately, the Western dx of hypovolemia can fall under several patterns of disease in Chinese Medicine: blood deficiency, yang deficiency, fluid deficiency or excess heat, etc.

A Western diagnosis will not translate into an Eastern treatment, not even the organs are the same! It might say liver, but it means the "Liver system," or the idea of the liver, not its actual function. When Chinese Medicine talks about the Spleen, it is often the Pancreas/Endocrine functions of the body. This is where Chinese Medicine gets poo-pooed as nonsense by Western Medicine. You can treat the same disease, but it may not be similar from a Western perspective. I happen to fall into a "Kidney Yang deficient" pattern, and with this Western medicine does correlate since I have Chronic Kidney Disease as a Western Diagnosis. My treatments from my "Chinese" doc have improved my kidney function on my labs, which is something that my nephrologist said could not happen. I have learned a lot about Chinese medicine, but I would NEVER attempt to diagnose myself or anyone else; diagnosis is based a great deal on pulses and symptoms which are completely unique to the individual. It is closest you'll ever get to custom pharmecueticals.

[ramakentesh]

There is recent on the pharmological constituents of many chinese herbs - and a really good book on the topic by Wink and some other guy. great read.

A chinese herbal combination including angelica and astragalus was found to dramatically increase EPO production - although I think this is blood cell building rather than blood plasma.

Licorice works in a similar way to florinef and it was my mainstay for 6 years of my POTS experience.

There are also a number of chinese herbs that work in similar ways to mestonin which might also account for occasional reports of benefit.

[RichGotsPots]

Unfortunately, the Western dx of hypovolemia can fall under several patterns of disease in Chinese Medicine: blood deficiency, yang deficiency, fluid deficiency or excess heat, etc.

A Western diagnosis will not translate into an Eastern treatment, not even the organs are the same! It might say liver, but it means the "Liver system," or the idea of the liver, not its actual function. When Chinese Medicine talks about the Spleen, it is often the Pancreas/Endocrine functions of the body. This is where Chinese Medicine gets poo-pooed as nonsense by Western Medicine. You can treat the same disease, but it may not be similar from a Western perspective. I happen to fall into a "Kidney Yang deficient" pattern, and with this Western medicine does correlate since I have Chronic Kidney Disease as a Western Diagnosis. My treatments from my "Chinese" doc have improved my kidney function on my labs, which is something that my nephrologist said could not happen. I have learned a lot about Chinese medicine, but I would NEVER attempt to diagnose myself or anyone else; diagnosis is based a great deal on pulses and symptoms which are completely unique to the individual. It is closest you'll ever get to custom pharmecueticals.

I've heard about the Kidney issues before in POTS studies, they say it may attribute to our hypovolemia...

[ramakentesh]

You know Vand are doing research right now on kidney dopamine abnormalities, hypovolumia and POTS.

[RichGotsPots]

You know Vand are doing research right now on kidney dopamine abnormalities, hypovolumia and POTS.

Anything I should have my nephrologist test for that vandy is looking for?

[firewatcher]

Yes, and I believe that one type of POTS will be found to be generated by faulty action of the renal system. But I do not think that all POTS has the same root cause or the same treatments.

[ramakentesh]

Well none of the research suggests otherwise so id agree with you completely.

Not really sure. Why not sign up for the vandy trial yourself?

[issie]

Yes, and I believe that one type of POTS will be found to be generated by faulty action of the renal system. But I do not think that all POTS has the same root cause or the same treatments.

I would agree. I think that some of us need 180 degree opposite treatments than others. I wish they could figure this renal dysfuction out. I've been researching it all day and I'm still just as confused as before I started. I don't understand how a person can have almost non-existent renin and aldosterone - but have high salt levels in their bodies. I was told not to salt load and not to use heavy compression hose because my blood pressure is too high. But, the normal treatment for this is directics and we all know a POTS person doesn't need to be any more dehydrated than we already are. I really, can't seem to figure this one out.

I don't know if I need to dilate my veins or constrict them. With this renin/aldosterone low levels it pretty much is counter-indicated to use any of the medicines that are normally given to a POTS person. Beta blockers and calcium channel blockers decrease these values more. And from what I'm reading - we should not take in more potassium. If anyone can shine some light on this for me I'd appreciate it.

Issie

[ramakentesh]

I dont understand that either and I doubt it something you can work out from the internet.

[issie]

I dont understand that either and I doubt it something you can work out from the internet.

Well, it doesn't appear that Mayo docs can work it out either. I've talked to about 3 doctors there about this confusion and they don't even attempt to take it on. I'm hoping someone here has run across something for this paradox.

[ramakentesh]

I think the trend for doctors is to say that pots is the final result of many different processes. And then give you some medication that they presume will help based on very few double blind phase trials LOL

[issie]

I think the trend for doctors is to say that pots is the final result of many different processes. And then give you some medication that they presume will help based on very few double blind phase trials LOL

Yeah, I'd agree and even the doctors hand pick who they use for their research. They exclude people who have other issues (ie heart problems, kidney problems) and then they want to treat us all the same. WRONG!!! We're not all the same. We need someone to seperate us all out and put us into catagories and then come up with a solution.

[ramakentesh]

The way ive approached it myself was the way my doctor told me to originally - i resisted this because I thought I knew better but over time ive realised I was wrong.

When I take something that is supposed to increase my blood pressure my BP goes DOWN. When i take something that is supposed to decrease my blood pressure like a beta blocker my BP goes through the roof. So I think its safe but not conclusive to presume that at least for me, my elevated blood pressure is some sort of coping mechanism for another abnormalities.

Without meds my standing systolic can be 110 to 160. On Betablockers its 160ish, on florinef and saline it went down to 125/140. On alpha agonists it was 130.

[julieph85]

Rama did you ever try a mixed alpha and beta blocker like labetolol

[ramakentesh]

i wanted to for years. But then I tried an alpha agonist and it worked great for a while anyway. So im probably glad I didnt. A fair few people here say that they have and that the fatigue was overwhelming. vandy sometimes use methyldopa and clonidine which seem to be better tolerated.