RichGotsPots Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 I know nothing about chinese medicine and herbs but was looking over a supplement by looking up each herb and came across this on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panax_pseudoginseng , Panax pseudoginseng is not an adaptogen like the better known Panax species, but it is famous as a hemostatic herb that both invigorates and builds blood.anyone ever try this herb for hypovelemia, I think I might Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anna Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Not tried this, but I have tried some other TCM that have a function to increase blood flow, I did not find that they worked for me, but I think this may be because I do not absorb food, vitamins or anything well!! My in laws use many concoctions and find many are helpful for various circulation problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichGotsPots Posted January 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Not tried this, but I have tried some other TCM that have a function to increase blood flow, I did not find that they worked for me, but I think this may be because I do not absorb food, vitamins or anything well!! My in laws use many concoctions and find many are helpful for various circulation problems.which ones did you try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anna Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 The main herb used in the tonics and tablets I used is Dong quai, this is used mainly for females, much as Ginseng is used to boost mens energy and stimulate blood flow, many Chinese herbs are male or female sensitive.http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dong-quai/NS_patient-Dongquai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firewatcher Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 I have not tried it either, but I can tell you that Western supplements are very different than Chinese Medicine formulas. The individual herbs would never be used in such high amounts or alone, in Chinese Medicine they would be combined with other herbs to increase and target their action in the body. Unlike Anna, I have had good success with Chinese Medicine, but it is the really old-fashioned, "brew your own tea from herb" type, not the pills or supplements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramakentesh Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Ive been on various TCM soup mixes over the times. Some have helped a lot. Both my doctor and my relative who is studying pharmocology at the moment as part of his post grad think that most chinese herbal mixes help because many just contain steroids and these reduce inflammation, and make a person feel better in general. Ginseng is probably a good example of this.panax ginseng is often sold in chinese grocery stores and most of the chinese guys I work with eat it daily like others might drink coffee. psuedogineng i am no so sure about but I assume it works in a similar way to the american and korean red ginsengs.it makes you feel happy but it made my orthostatic intolerance worse on the few occasions I got talked into trying it at work.There are a few chinese herbs that are often incorporated into mixtures with the aim of building blood as they put it - astragalus, angelica and licorice seem the most often. And there are a number of chinese herbs that have been reported to have benefit in CFS that seem to work in a similar way to mestonin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichGotsPots Posted January 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 I have not tried it either, but I can tell you that Western supplements are very different than Chinese Medicine formulas. The individual herbs would never be used in such high amounts or alone, in Chinese Medicine they would be combined with other herbs to increase and target their action in the body. Unlike Anna, I have had good success with Chinese Medicine, but it is the really old-fashioned, "brew your own tea from herb" type, not the pills or supplements.Which one have you brewed and what were the good effects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramakentesh Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I have not tried it either, but I can tell you that Western supplements are very different than Chinese Medicine formulas. The individual herbs would never be used in such high amounts or alone, in Chinese Medicine they would be combined with other herbs to increase and target their action in the body. Unlike Anna, I have had good success with Chinese Medicine, but it is the really old-fashioned, "brew your own tea from herb" type, not the pills or supplements.Although there is an anti malarial and several acetylcholinesterase inhibitors found by Chinese medical researchers in herbs traditionally incorporated in TCM mixes that have now been patented by these Chinese medical researchers and are now either in phase trials as pharmeceuticals or actually being perscribed by 'western' doctors all over the world.Infact i was amazed by two things in TCM - the first being that many of the plants used also have traditional usage history in other countries and secondly that many of them are now being peddled individually by chinese medical researchers as potential pharmeceuticals.Many are also being plundered for modern supplements in western countries - huperzine A, rhodiola rosea (although this has a larger history in scando countries), and venotonics with the same constituents as european herbal remedies like rutin, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firewatcher Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 "Infact i was amazed by two things in TCM - the first being that many of the plants used also have traditional usage history in other countries and secondly that many of them are now being peddled individually by chinese medical researchers as potential pharmeceuticals."Yes and this is a major failing of TCM in response to an effort on its part to legitimize itself to Western Medicine. The practitioner that I see uses an older system, before the Communists came to power and attempted to "Westernize" the old system. The biggest problem with "supplement-izing" these herbs is that it takes their use and actions completely out of context of their intended purpose in the body. Chinese medicine is meant to be a dynamic system to return one to health and then maintain that health, not just to stop the progression of disease. The patient is never intended to take one formula for the rest of their lives in response to a diagnosis, but to move the body into a better state of health and progress towards a weakening of the "medicine" and an increase in health.Another thing you will also find if you research these formulas is that by taking a single herb out and attempting to synthesize the active compounds is not the same as the compounds produced when the formula is cooked together. Many of these herbal ingredients interact with one another in specific ratios that cannot be extracted by any other way than cooking them all together. The invivo actions cannot yet be explained by Western medicine in many cases.For my symptoms, one of the formulas I have taken is a customized version of Zhen Wu Tang, which has many clinical trials to justify its efficacy for many kidney conditions. As it has been the only change that I have made and I have regular lab-work that has gone back for over six years, demonstrating my kidney status, the improvement can only be attributed to the herbs. When I take my "herbal medication," my POTS symptoms improve as well as my kidney markers. As with any treatment, though, the patient's response is often proportionate to the knowledge of the doctor. I was fortunate that mine has an excellent support network and enduring tenacity. A poor practitioner of any branch of medicine will most often yield a poor result, unless they are lucky, and unfortunately there are proportionately as many bad Chinese herbalists as there are bad MDs.As with any drug, these herbs can and do cause side effects if used incorrectly, so what is medicine for one can be poison for another. I do not understand enough of diagnosis using the old Chinese system, so I cannot and will not recommend any formulas for any person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramakentesh Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I think your probably right. But then again most of the guys at work are chinese born and they are always just popping a ginseng here and a jujube tea there, LOL although I guess this is just for energy or relaxation.Another thing you will also find if you research these formulas is that by taking a single herb out and attempting to synthesize the active compounds is not the same as the compounds produced when the formula is cooked together. Many of these herbal ingredients interact with one another in specific ratios that cannot be extracted by any other way than cooking them all together. The invivo actions cannot yet be explained by Western medicine in many cases.Do you mean subjectively or as demonstrated in clinical research? Most of the clinical research Ive seen on traditional mixtures has broken up the constituents to see which one does the thing they are after - certainly with the growing interest in acetylcholinesterase inhibitors for Alzheimers and the large amounts of published research coming out of China and Korea looking for these in TCM herbal preparations. its interesting how they break them up into two constituents, then just one, then three, and then try to exclude the ones that dont have esterase activity.the funniest story was the artemisia chinensis (whatever it was called) that chinese medical researchers found to have better antimalarial effects than any other western medication on the market. Westerner researchers refused to believe it for years until they tested it themselves and surprise surprise it is superior to all known anti-malarial pharms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firewatcher Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 "Do you mean subjectively or as demonstrated in clinical research? Most of the clinical research Ive seen on traditional mixtures has broken up the constituents to see which one does the thing they are after..."I mean "cooked all together," and the clinical research proves it out! There have been Chinese and Tiawanese studies trying to make drugs from these formulas that have found that if you don't cook the herbs together, the chemicals in the plant/mineral are not released in the same way or quantity as cooked alone. MuLi is oyster shell, it is a "cook for an hour, before you add other ingredients:" and it completely changes the ph of the cooking water and releases different chemicals in the herbs than if you don't precook it. It also doesn't work as well in the body if you don't follow the instructions! This is an OLD medical tradition! It has over two thousand years of human trials behind it, if these formulas ended in the death of the patient, they would NOT be commonly used! HOWEVER, they are prescribed for very specific symptom parameters, and something as simple as "thirst" or "no thirst" will completely change the formula diagnosed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anna Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 To add to this each mix of herbs is tailer made, two people may go to the same Dr. for the exact same problem, but they will more often than not get a different mix of herbs, as TCM takes account of so much more than just the problem you go to the Dr. with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramakentesh Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 yeah very true. my new mix is slightly different to my old and at least it tastes better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichGotsPots Posted February 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 how do you know who to trust for TCM, is there a governing body or degree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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