Gut Bacteria As Possible Cause/contributor To Pots?

[sue1234]

I posted this on another thread, and thought it should have a thread of its own:

Okay, my brain isn't awake yet today, but I have done TONS of reading up on gut bacteria. That's why I had an appt. in February to go to a doctor that can DNA intestinal bacteria and see what strains one seems to have and in what amounts. Of course, some strains give of hydrogen sulfide, amongst a few other things. All of this excess gets into the circulation and can affect the CNS system, etc.

I had talked a little about this via PM with Firewatcher. I had not posted because it was one of those random things I have been studying and actually wanted to go have it addressed by the doctor and see how treatment affected me.

Gut bacteria can also produce different amines, most notably histamine, hence people going on a low histamine diet makes sure that the gut bacteria can't produce histamine. My thinking is, if we have too much of the wrong kinds of bacteria, then they overproduce these things that affect us, like histamine.

Regarding HS, I think I posted something a few months back that stated that our, oh can't think, the gut slowing problem we have, could be caused by HS, as it has been shown that HS slow the intestinal waves, so things don't move along.

All I know is, when I had to go in the hospital for a 3-day fast for my blood sugar test, by the third day I was having a spontaneous BM(unheard of for me), passing gas(unheard of for me) and MY MIND WAS SOOOO CLEAR! So, last fall I started reading up on gut bacteria and if you have certain strains, they give off endotoxins, which can affect the various systems.

This is my "baby", as far as figuring out what is wrong with me. I am trying desperately to get my symptoms under control, such as I expect too much histamine. But, if I do have high histamine, I think it can be traced back to the gut bacteria and their actions. I also get the blue tinged urine occasionally, and I have concluded that, as I read up, gut bacteria convert tryptophan into indoles that end up in the urine and giving it the blue tinge, upon exposure to air and light.

It really goes much deeper, and can definitely explain alot of things we have wrong, and CFS sufferers, also.

Later or tomorrow I will post some references that really got me to thinking that gut bacteria could be the culprit. One interesting "factoid" that helps people understand the affect of gut bacteria, is, sometime in the past, doctors found out that if they had a patient that had hepatic encephalopathy, they could cure it with antibiotics. If I remember correctly, they knew it would clear it up, but they didn't understand WHY.

[Birdlady]

My brain isn't working real well today either Sue. I'm worried about other things, so having a hard time focusing on this.

I agree with you that our guts is where a lot of our issues begin or even perpetuate itself. Interestingly as far as gut issues go, mine are not nearly as bad as some on here. I have regular bowel movements, but sometimes too regular. I am on the looser side of normal and have undigested food in my stools at times. (Sorry TMI) If the undigested food wasn't there, then I'd think I was ok. However I still wonder because I am lactose intolerant and I have a hard time assimilating iron and B vitamins from my food. My vitamin and nutrient levels are terrible even though my diet is very rich of vitamins.

I will be very interested to see what your tests show. Please post those when the results are in if you don't mind. I think we can learn a lot from each others lab results.

As I said in the other thread, my husband has a very hard to kill bacteria in his gut, citrobacter freundii. If you look into this bacteria it is nearly impossible to get rid of because it feeds off of everything and can switch from anaerobic to aerobic. The only antibiotic that has been shown to actually work to kill it is not approved in the US. (This is what my husband has told me and just passing this info along)

It still makes me wonder how did the body ever let something like this replicate in the body in the first place. It is probably an opportunistic infection of some sort. Chicken or egg? lol I keep asking myself that.

[sue1234]

Dana, I forgot to mention that I actually made the appt., but had to cancel when I found out I had to pay money up front for the appt., even though insurance would reimburse me for most of it later. I couldn't afford that at the moment, as i am just beginning to start paying on my LARGE deductible that I have accumulated so far this year. I do plan on going in a few months(I hope!). I know that it has to be the basis of my issues.

So, what a great doctor that they pinpointed the exact bacteria that is your husband's culprit! Was that just a regular ol' g.i. doctor? The one I was going to see is an MD, but now into functional medicine.

[Birdlady]

I asked my husband and this is the website he used. http://www.parasitetesting.com/ Let me paraphrase everything my husband just told me.

Like everything though testing is not 100% accurate. There is DNA and culture tests. The one he had done was a culture test and this lab checks for a large number of things. Some of labs test for only 10 things which may not be helpful at all. However if the bacteria is fragile then it may die before reaching the lab and thus not culture. With DNA tests my husband said they are also good, but the lab has to have the DNA on file to find it. Basically if the DNA has mutated, then the lab won't be able to identify the bacteria or parasite in the stool.

You can order the test yourself, but the results have to be sent to a doctor or nurse practitioner. It can be any doctor, so he had to sent to one of our natural doctors. He got the Comprehensive Stool Analysis Test and Swab Culture Test done.

I hear you on the medical bills. Lots of ppl are mad at me right now for not paying them. It's either eat or pay medical bills and I think you know which is higher priority.

[firewatcher]

I think that this theory has definite merit. The gut/brain connection is just starting to be explored, but has hard science behind it.

Gut types article

Stress affects gut bacterial balance

Gut bacteria can control organ function

Cross-talk between gut bacteria and brain

Sorry for so many Science Daily articles, but it was the quickest way to find shortened versions in plain english.

[yogini]

I am SO interested in this topic. I am otherwise healthy - no EDS, mast cell or any of the other conditions that we are talking about other than just POTS. However, I've had GERD since I was a teenager - way before POTS w/ lots of acidity, bloating and gas (in both directions) and irritation in my throat. I've had a couple of endoscopies and been tested for celiac to no avail. My stomach issues come in waves and, of course, coincide with my POTS flares. I've tried changing diet, probiotics, etc, but whatever is going on I think goes beyond what I can do on my own. I would be interested in getting the testing - I don't mind laying out money esp if my insurance gives it back to me. Would love all of your input. Also wondering how I go about finding someone in my area?

I've heard a couple mentions of coconut oil and other treataments - would love any reccommendations on this too. Thanks!

[bruc]

Have terrible SIBO right now being treated with antibiotics.

Also have leaky gut syndrome which means the toxins are leaking out of the intestines and spreading throughout my system.

Definitely a connection.

[sue1234]

I'm going to have to dig to find it, but a few weeks ago I ran across a place that mentioned an NIH-backed study in California(forgot which institution) that is looking at the possible connection between the endotoxins from gut bacteria and ALZHEIMERS! When I stopped and really thought about it, I could understand. I hate to keep repeating myself, but 3 days without food lifted the brain fog! So, I can see where the by-products could damage(?) or definitely alter the brain. I have sometimes equated my thinking brain to pre-Alzheimers. It seems like I can't remember anything, and I don't mean it in a funny, usual way. I mean I have a bachelor of science degree, and I can't THINK anymore. I know what my abilities used to be, and they're not there anymore.

And, I found a study that links the insulin resistance in diabetes to a by-product of bacteria. The by-product caused a permeable intestinal lining(leaky gut, I assume) and inflammation. Somehow this contributed to insulin restistance, and it was "cured" in mice when the bacteria were killed off. I thought that was fascinating. It was published and in PubMed in 2009, but I bet it doesn't get shouted out by mainstream medicine because then the drug companies can't make diabetes meds. You know they are just drooling at the prospect of 1 in 3 Americans leaning toward diabetes within 20 or so years.

And, I'll even go as far as saying this. I have wondered if autistic kids are the way they are due to endotoxins from the gut? I can empathize with those that don't have their thinking-mind in working order. Autistic kids start out equal to their peers, then what, around 18 months or two, they start changing. Well, by then they have been on table foods for a year or so. Just enough for the bacteria to get messed up.

Okay, as you can tell, I really have been thinking about all this for a good half a year. It's a shame that it costs so much, out of pocket, to have this theory checked. I know we have all put alot of good money already into trying to get this POTS thing figured out.

[bruc]

Dr.s studying potential connection between gut bacteria and many diseases another example is parkinsons

[sue1234]

Yogini, I was set up to see a "functional" doctor. They are MDs who are into this area. Functional medicine, if I remember what I read, looks to find the basic cause and address that. JUST what I've been wanting!

So, with them being an MD, my insurance will pay for the visit, but possibly not the DNA of the microbes. My insurance may think that is a little on the realm of medicine....

[HopeSprings]

There are a few studies linking improvement in CFS symptoms (cognitive symptoms and anxiety I believe) with probiotics. Maybe it's worth a try to see if it helps any.

[sue1234]

One more thing. I found an MD/PhD researcher in a medical institution near me that has been studying gut bacteria and their role in health. From what I read on the labs homepage, he doesn't see clinical patients. But, I emailed to see if he could recommend a g.i. doctor in my nearest MAJOR medical institution(same area he works) that might address the possible dysbiosis, and I heard nothing back. Not unusual. So, I called his office to ask the receptionist if he ever read his emails from patients, and I told her all I wanted was a recommendation. She said to email her with the letter and she said she would get it to him. So, ten days later, nothing. That's my big issue with medicine right now. I get a big fat zero when I ask for something this simple. You know if he's researching it, he's got to know a good g.i. colleague or two.

[firewatcher]

And a link between connective tissue disorders and gut bacteria:

[intestinal microecology in some systemic connective tissue diseases].

[Article in Russian]

Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol. 2007 Jul-Aug;(4):38-41.

Gul'neva MIu, Romanov VA, Shilkina NP.

Abstract

In patients with systemic connective tissue diseases were studied. The species structure intestinal microflora was characterized by decrease of dominating status of anaerobic bacteria and increase of role of opportunistic bacteria. The number of Lactobacillus decreased significantly. Bifidobacterium and Bacteroides was also decreased in number while their detection rate did not change. Opportunistic bacteria with hemolytic activity acquired greater significance in the forming of patients' intestinal microbiocenosis. Significant increase of Staphylococcus and opportunistic Enterobacteriaceae detection rate and density of intestine colonization was detected. Colonization of the intestine by S. aureus was revealed. Comparative analysis of the qualitative and quantitative structure of the intestinal microflora in patients with systemic lupus erythematosus and systemic scleriasis revealed similar patterns. However, colonization of the gut by opportunistic intestinal bacteria, Candida and microorganisms with hemolytic activity was more frequently observed in patients with systemic scleriasis.

PMID:

17886374

[sue1234]

Naomi, for myself, I have a horrible history with probiotics. They make me bloat really bad, where I have trouble breathing. It's like all the bacteria are all releasing gases, and all that gas does NOT move. If it moved, no problem(well, for me, but maybe it would be for others )

[bruc]

Depending on whats causing the permeability, probiotics could make this worse instead of better.

There are a few studies linking improvement in CFS symptoms (cognitive symptoms and anxiety I believe) with probiotics. Maybe it's worth a try to see if it helps any.

[sue1234]

Wow, thanks everyone for throwing in all the information you come up with. I always imagined we'd figure this thing out by "hashing" it out with all our brains thinking! And, as I type this, there is a Culturelle commercial on tv. Is that a sign or what?

[sue1234]

Okay, here is the link to the study being done on bacterial overgrowth and alzheimers. It talks about hydrogen sulfide.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/medicine/departments/psychiatry_behavioralsciences/research/gsc/research/study_sibo.php

And, it's being done at USC--a pretty standout place!

I wanted to add, from Wikipedia, what happens in the body with hydrogen sulfide:

Function in the body

Hydrogen sulfide is produced in small amounts by some cells of the mammalian body and has a number of biological signaling functions. (Only two other such gases are currently known: nitric oxide (NO) and carbon monoxide (CO).)

The gas is produced from cysteine by the enzymes cystathionine beta-synthase and cystathionine gamma-lyase. It acts as a relaxant of smooth muscle and as a vasodilator[21] and is also active in the brain, where it increases the response of the NMDA receptor and facilitates long term potentiation,[22] which is involved in the formation of memory.

Eventually the gas is converted to sulfite in the mitochondria by thiosulfate reductase, and the sulfite is further oxidized to thiosulfate and sulfate by sulfite oxidase. The sulfates are excreted in the urine.[23]

Due to its effects similar to nitric oxide (without its potential to form peroxides by interacting with superoxide), hydrogen sulfide is now recognized as potentially protecting against cardiovascular disease.[21] The cardioprotective role effect of garlic is caused by catabolism of the polysulfide group in allicin to H2S, a reaction that could depend on reduction mediated by glutathione.[24]

Though both nitric oxide and hydrogen sulfide have been shown to relax blood vessels, their mechanisms of action are different: while NO activates the enzyme guanylyl cyclase, H2S activates ATP-sensitive potassium channel in smooth muscle cells. Researchers are not clear how the vessel-relaxing responsibilities are shared between nitric oxide and hydrogen sulfide. However there exists some evidence to suggest that nitric oxide does most of the vessel-relaxing work in large vessels and hydrogen sulfide is responsible for similar action in smaller blood vessels.[25]

Like nitric oxide, hydrogen sulfide is involved in the relaxation of smooth muscle that causes erection of the penis, presenting possible new therapy opportunities for erectile dysfunction.[26][27]

In Alzheimer's disease the brain's hydrogen sulfide concentration is severely decreased.[28] In trisomy 21 (the most common form of Down syndrome) the body produces an excess of hydrogen sulfide.[23] Hydrogen sulfide is also involved in the disease process of type 1 diabetes. The beta cells of the pancreas in type 1 diabetes produce an excess of the gas, leading to the death of beta cells and to a reduced production of insulin by those that remain.[25]

There's that NMDA receptor you all were talking about yesterday!

[issie]

Naomi, for myself, I have a horrible history with probiotics. They make me bloat really bad, where I have trouble breathing. It's like all the bacteria are all releasing gases, and all that gas does NOT move. If it moved, no problem(well, for me, but maybe it would be for others )

That is exactly what happens when the yeast and bad bacteria die off. You get bloating, cramping etc. if you kill them off too fast. You also have to be sure not to be feeding them when you're killing them. They thrive on sugar and starches - so keep feeding them and they are happy and exist somewhat at peace with you. Start to kill them off - rebellion. Not to mention the die off that you have to expel - so you might get The Big D. That's a good thing - proves to me that you really need the probiotics.

[sue1234]

Actually, I think what that tells me is they set up too soon in my digestive system and then feed off of the undigested food. That is why I need a doctor that is knowledgable to help me get through it.

[issie]

Have you ever read the Yeast Connection? It would answer all these questions for you in regard to yeast and probiotics. Good bacteria isn't going to harm you - it's the bad bacteria that is the culprit. If you increase the amount of good vs. bad - your body will be at peace. We all have both kinds and they will always be. It's keeping the balance that is important. Better for the good to outweigh the bad. As for undigested food. What I'm learning is that if you eat the proper combinations and have the right amount of acid for digestion - it will digest and totally leave the stomach within 3 hours and continue on it's path out and there won't be anything to putrefy or cause issues. But, if you combine the wrong foods and the stomach acids and enzymes can't be produced well enough to digest, then they sit there and then the problems start. They rot and the bacteria starts to feed and multiply. I've got to finish reading this book and get myself started on this. I can see it really will be hard to do - but I think it's a piece of THIS puzzle.

[bruc]

It depends on where the bacteria is growing.

Good or bad in the small bowel means trouble.

Good bacteria can overgrow in the small bowel just like bad and create major problems.

If you have SIBO it's very important to determine the cause. In my case a myopathy is the cause.

Adding probiotics will just make the problem worse because the good will just sit and grow just like the bad.

[issie]

It depends on where the bacteria is growing.

Good or bad in the small bowel means trouble.

Good bacteria can overgrow in the small bowel just like bad and create major problems.

If you have SIBO it's very important to determine the cause. In my case a myopathy is the cause.

Adding probiotics will just make the problem worse because the good will just sit and grow just like the bad.

______________________

Bruce,

If you google "SIBO and probiotics" that way - you will come up with more articles saying that probiotics "Help" SIBO than not. The only things I found saying that it would not help - were other peoples comments, not science or Doctors/Naturopaths. (Didn't find much scientific info, at all.) The intestines slow down and things start to back up - in your case its from myopathy. To get the gut to flowing and moving along - I still think the food combining is the key - even though nerve issues are the problem. If we combine things correctly and they don't sit in there too long - it will be better all the way around. I still hold to the "opinion" that good bacteria is the key to our issues. Have you tried the probiotics to see if they would counteract the bad ones - and to see if it will help? According to the studies I read it HAS helped those with SIBO. They are also connecting a fruit and lactose intolerance to SIBO - have you been checked for that? (Wondering if they improperly were eating fruit with other things when this was checked. According to what I'm learning - fruit should only be eaten alone. If it's combined with anything, it will cause it to start fermenting and it won't be digested properly. You have to eat it by itself BEFORE anything else, then wait at least 20 minutes before you eat anything else. You can never eat fruit after a meal - it has to be before. Then the claim is that it will be out and gone in 20 minutes.)

[issie]

For those that got my earlier post - it's been added to and revised a little.

[anna]

Hello Sue,

You may want to contact this Dr.one of my sons has been under his care:

Professor Qasim Aziz

Professor Aziz completed his early medical training and also obtained his PhD in Manchester and subsequently held the posts of lecturer, senior lecturer and professor of gastroenterology at the University of Manchester between 1994 and 2006. He moved to Barts and The London in December 2006 where he is Professor of Neurogastroenterology and director of the Wingate Institute of Neurogastroenterology.

Professor Aziz has pioneered the use of neurophysiological techniques to study human brain gut interactions in health and disease. His PhD work contributed to the identification of the brain representation of human swallowing muscles and also he also undertaken seminal work which has helped to identify the human brain centres involved in processing gastrointestinal pain. He was awarded the Sir Francis Avery Jones Research Gold Medal by the British Society of Gastroenterology in 1998 and the Janssen Award for Basic and Clinical Research by the American Gastroenterology Association in 2000. He has served as the chairman of the Neurogastroenterology section of the British Society of Gastroenterology and is currently a member of the executive committee of the European Society of Neurogastroenterology and Motility and helps to promote education in Neurogastroenterology across Europe through his role as a member of the education committee of the United European Gastroenterology Federation. He is also a member of the ROME III Committee which publishes the criteria for the diagnosis of functional gastrointestinal disorders and has co-authored the British Society of Gastroenterology guidelines for the management of Irritable Bowel Syndrome. He has published his research extensively in peer reviewed journals.

[cmruls]

I agree with the idea that the stomach acids need to work to help 'digest' the food eaten. This is why it is recommended not to drink water 20 minutes before and 60 minutes after a meal so that you don't dilute the stomach acids.

The yeast infection is a real problem. Antibiotics and sugars/carbs are a huge culprit. I take a teaspoon of coconut oil every day. Coconut oil has some very interesting properties. Do a search online for all the facts.