Cortisol, Aldosterone - Hormone Support -Would It Help?

[issie]

As for the inflammation, it is an immune response. That can also be checked via bloodwork. There are several natural anti-inflamatories like ginger that I take since my nephrologist has nixed me taking any of the OTC kind and it helps.

I also take ginger and tumeric and fish oil. But, it doesn't help enough. How much ginger do you take a day? So, you can't take Advil - ever? I try not to because of my liver dysfunction. But, once in awhile it helps a little, but still not enough. I'm trying to get an appt. with arizona girls doc who is into auto immune things. They are reviewing my records to see if they can get me in sooner. I finally, got an appt. with a cardio doc - the one dani uses. So, hopefully have two doc's on board. Just need a primary/internist and I'll be set. Here we go again - looking for doctors and answers.

[issie]

I was reading about the heart producing it's own renin to create Angiotensin II. It seems that our Mast cells throughout the body have an ability to create renin. I do find it interesting that Vanderbilt did a study on MCA and hyper POTs. Maybe this could also be a key piece to our problem. I agree the endocrine system seems to be the most complicated, and there are still so many things that they don't know about or understand.

I read several posts on this forum from last year talking about hyper POTs and blood pooling. Someone posted that true hyper POTs people should have severe vasoconstriction from the norepinephrine and no blood pooling. That was my thinking behind phentolamine.

As I mentioned before the question is really which came first the norepinephrine surges or the kidney malfunction. If the norepinephrine surges were caused by the kidney's not working properly then the lower salt should still stimulate more renin production than a high sodium diet. If the norepinephrine is being released for another reason, then getting those levels down to a more normal level should get the kidneys functioning properly with a normal sodium intake. I guess I'll be the first guinea pig and lower my salt intake and see what happens.

I think you and I are on the same page as far as our thinking goes. That's why I questioned how wise it was to use so much salt. As I mentioned earlier - my body always never wanted allot of salt. Everything always tasted too salty to me. My plan is to slowly lower my salt back to only having it on food and using either the himylain or celtic salt. I think the minerals will be a key in how our body uses the salt.

As for mast cells - I believe I have issues with this being a problem. I've been trying the H1 and H2's when I have reactions and it is helping. Although, I worry about depressing stomach acid because I think that's one of our problems - digestion. If you don't have enough stomach acid you will actually GET heartburn and reflux. Plus, because of my vitiligo - I've read that it can be caused by lack of stomach acid. So, if I use this - I wonder if I could just take a HCI/pepsin with food and it still work on the allergy symptoms if I need to take the H2. I guess there is an experiment waiting to happen.

As for blood pooling - have it REAL BAD. But, I have EDS - so there's real bad veins. My feet and legs can turn very blue in a short time. I have to keep them moving to keep the circulation going. I'm always fidgeting. I wear the compression hose 24/7. Some people here have been really concerned about me doing this - but my legs and feet will go numb and hurt if I don't have them on. I'm hoping to address this with the cardio doc in 2 weeks and maybe he'll direct me to the proper place for this issue.

[sue1234]

I was reading about calcium recently, as calcium really aggravates my bloating. I was reading that excess sodium in the diet can leach calcium from the bones. I already have osteopenia, so it is probably not good for me to salt load.

Another interesting thing I read at the Linus Pauling Institute about calcium:

"Calcium plays a role in mediating the constriction and relaxation of blood vessels (vasoconstriction and vasodilation), nerve impulse transmission, muscle contraction, and the secretion of hormones like insulin."

I know I don't get enough calcium because of the bloating, couple that with low vit. D issues, and I can see where I could have a problem with vaso-constriction and dilation. I have just started my prescription vit. D(so far, so good) and I'll see if any of my symptoms change in the next few months.

I also have big INSULIN problems, like I've posted before regarding my hypoglycemia. So, I'll see if anything changes in that department too.

[issie]

In the '78 study they used phentolamine with high amounts of norepinephrine to restart the renin production in the kidneys. If it's the high level of norepinephrine that is casing our renin prodction to fall, couldn't phentolamine be used to correct our renin prodction problem. The study also went into sodium deficient and effects of norepinephrine on renin production and sodium replete and norepinephrine effects on renin production. I'm thinking maybe we should be cutting down our salt intake from looking at this study. I have been salt loading since I was a teenager, and maybe this is why I have gotten so bad.

I really don't know anything about that particular medicine. All I could find is that it could contribute to tachy. I have more issues with that than brady. So, for me it would not be a good choice.

I'm with you on the salt issue. I think, my body has always known that I didn't need allot of salt. Everything always tasted too salty to me. But, then when I crave salty potatoe chips - then maybe I needed the salt. Who knows it could have been the potassium. But, for me I plan to start using the himalayn or celtic salt and try to do most of my own cooking so that that is the form of salt used and see if it makes a difference.

[issie]

Not suggesting to try it (since it is a key electrolyte especially for heart rhythm and must be treated with great caution), but when potassium goes high it is supposed to trigger aldosterone. The aldosterone steers the kidney to dump the potassium... and indirectly to retain salt (with which comes extra water). Aldosterone is like a "rudder" between K and Na/H20... while ADH/Vasopressin is like a "throttle" directly to water retention.

To use this theory, one would want both Na & K present so that the salt is there to do it's water retention magic. Of course, this *assumes* a standard working renin response to K and focuses on just one of the influences on renin stimulation (albeit a key one).

I've had low potassium (from fludrocortisone & running out of K supplements) and the ER was surprised I didn't induce serious heart trouble (I was lucky). One needs to be wary of either high or low (especially if already prone to arrhythmia)... it is really critical to heart function. Sodium variations seem less critical in short term stuff, and I think the body treats it as such.

Erik,

I was just re-reading some of my old saved post and re-read your response on this. I just recently re-tried Florineff. I can't take it - it gives me TERRIBLE hot flashes and headaches and ringing in the ears. So, I was wondering how you would implement this approach. What type and where do you get the vit K, and how much do you take? I have some potassium. But, one question. One of the sites I was reading on adrenal dysfunction - said to not take potassium and fruits and vegs. with potassium because of the way it affects the adrenals. He recommended the sea salt each morning in water. Don't know why or if this would be conflicting in our case with POTS. It seems, knowing that salt lowers the aldesterone and we already know that in POTS aldesterone is lower already - this would be counter productive.

[Birdlady]

In people with low aldosterone (from Addison's disease with high renin) their potassium levels are normally high. Aldosterone is supposed to retain sodium and excrete potassium, so if it's low then your sodium is too low and potassium too high. I'm simplifying it but that's the general idea. That's why websites are saying to avoid high potassium foods in Addison's patients.

Now for whatever reason those of us with low aldosterone, POTS with "adrenal fatigue" or whatever it is you want to call it, I don't tend to see high potassium levels. This paradoxical effect should make us wonder why that is happening! I personally haven't figured it out and don't offer any hypothesis either.

It is true that salt lowers aldosterone, but it lowers it when the body senses it has enough sodium. The lowering of aldosterone is a good thing in this case because if your body continued to make the same amount of aldosterone while your intake of sodium was high, you'd have too much sodium! If you have a real deficiency in aldosterone, then whether you take salt or not it's going to be low causing you to excrete too much sodium. I'm certainly not one that advocates taking lots of salt, but I think it's good to apply it to food to your taste.

It's best to check aldosterone while salt fasting to see the true levels in the body.

[issie]

In people with low aldosterone (from Addison's disease with high renin) their potassium levels are normally high. Aldosterone is supposed to retain sodium and excrete potassium, so if it's low then your sodium is too low and potassium too high. I'm simplifying it but that's the general idea. That's why websites are saying to avoid high potassium foods in Addison's patients.

Now for whatever reason those of us with low aldosterone, POTS with "adrenal fatigue" or whatever it is you want to call it, I don't tend to see high potassium levels. This paradoxical effect should make us wonder why that is happening! I personally haven't figured it out and don't offer any hypothesis either.

It is true that salt lowers aldosterone, but it lowers it when the body senses it has enough sodium. The lowering of aldosterone is a good thing in this case because if your body continued to make the same amount of aldosterone while your intake of sodium was high, you'd have too much sodium! If you have a real deficiency in aldosterone, then whether you take salt or not it's going to be low causing you to excrete too much sodium. I'm certainly not one that advocates taking lots of salt, but I think it's good to apply it to food to your taste.

It's best to check aldosterone while salt fasting to see the true levels in the body.

Dana, you're so brilliant. I felt so bad from the flornif I just ate a banana - now I feel better. I'm having more dizzy spells too. I did the hymilian salt in water this morning too. NOT good. I do think that we don't need the EXTRA salt. My kidneys hurt too. I guess my 3 day experiment confirmed what I had been thinking all along. So, now I've confirmed what I was concluding from my research.

When they do testing on me I'm always too high sodium and this was before trying to do extra salt. I'm not one to even like salt. A little is too much for me - taste wise. I think we need to start paying attention to what our body is telling us and forget what doctors are trying to tell us. I gave it one more shot with the salt thing. It doesn't seem to be the right thing for me.

The cardio also gave me propranalol to try. I had to cut it down to 5 mg. and only use it 2x day instead of 3x. It was too much for me. I do think it is helping. My chest doesn't hurt so bad with the pounding and even though my pulse is still going up over 30 points - it's starting from a lower starting point and I think it doesn't hurt as bad. It's only been a few days - so we will see what time and build up does. (Only one thing, I recently found is it can cause your renin to decrease. I don't know if that would cause further issues with low aldesterone.)

I think still the aldesterone balance is my issue. Maybe Eric's idea of the postassium and vit K would work. If it causes the aldesterone to increase, that may be the ticket. I wish I had the answers - still trying to find them.

Thanks for your input Dana!!

Issie

[erik]

I just take a few over-the-counter potassium every so often, which is very small amount (3% of RDA each... perhaps by regulation?). I have not pursued a more intense or extended release potassium, though I had something once in the ER. I also take salt-tablets (thermotabs) with lots of water. I am seeking modest BP boost via water retention (which comes with kidney reclaiming salt via increased aldosterone) and it works for me.

One might note that most receptor populations/tunings appear to adjust as well over time. This is said to happen in the kidney for people trying to do "low salt diet" for purposes of reducing essential hypertension. Even when they do succeed (which is very difficult), the kidney tends to just tune-up it's sensitivity and adjust to the new low-salt levels, defeating the whole exercise. The same may happen in the opposite direction too with salt supplementation, who knows. The entire picture of interwoven hormonal signals is a bit much to pin down 100%, even without dysfunction.

When on fludrocortisone, I got used to taking potassium by necessity as it could go low on me. If any of the specific neuro-hormonal responses are lacking then the picture changes. Can't assume response will be either normal or abnormal... with POTS & the like, sometimes it seems like the "entire system" is off-kilter yet each of the pieces still tests pretty normal for most folks. If someone has an explicit malfunction like in the adrenals then it would need to be considered, of course... and one treatment or another could be very inappropriate. That's where a doc at least tries to guide things when possible.

[TXPOTS]

In people with low aldosterone (from Addison's disease with high renin) their potassium levels are normally high. Aldosterone is supposed to retain sodium and excrete potassium, so if it's low then your sodium is too low and potassium too high. I'm simplifying it but that's the general idea. That's why websites are saying to avoid high potassium foods in Addison's patients.

Now for whatever reason those of us with low aldosterone, POTS with "adrenal fatigue" or whatever it is you want to call it, I don't tend to see high potassium levels. This paradoxical effect should make us wonder why that is happening! I personally haven't figured it out and don't offer any hypothesis either.

It is true that salt lowers aldosterone, but it lowers it when the body senses it has enough sodium. The lowering of aldosterone is a good thing in this case because if your body continued to make the same amount of aldosterone while your intake of sodium was high, you'd have too much sodium! If you have a real deficiency in aldosterone, then whether you take salt or not it's going to be low causing you to excrete too much sodium. I'm certainly not one that advocates taking lots of salt, but I think it's good to apply it to food to your taste.

It's best to check aldosterone while salt fasting to see the true levels in the body.

To complicate matters, people with diabetes insipidus have low potassium and high sodium. I ended up having both diabetes insipidus and low aldosterone. My electrolytes appeared normal though I had two major issues.

[sue1234]

I must be missing something!! I was reading up on renin/aldosterone, and first let me see if I understand this correctly:

if aldosterone is low, renin will rise to bring it up

Is this correct??

So then I was reading that one of the things that can lower renin is a beta blocker. If that is the case, then it should be counter-intuitive for us to use a beta blocker, correct?(those of us with low aldosterone/low blood volume anyway). A beta blocker would lower blood volume and make the original problem worse. Right?

[issie]

I must be missing something!! I was reading up on renin/aldosterone, and first let me see if I understand this correctly:

if aldosterone is low, renin will rise to bring it up

Is this correct??

So then I was reading that one of the things that can lower renin is a beta blocker. If that is the case, then it should be counter-intuitive for us to use a beta blocker, correct?(those of us with low aldosterone/low blood volume anyway). A beta blocker would lower blood volume and make the original problem worse. Right?

Sue,

That's how I'm reading it too. But, with my tachy being so high and hard - I'm giving it a try. I don't know if all betas are that way but propranalol is. I felt that in that the propranalol had properties that would address adrenal issues - it was worth a shot.

There isn't much on renin and I can't find anything to help bring renin up, but I have found things to bring up and supplement aldesterone. Florniff is a synthentic form of aldesterone - but will suppress what your body makes on it's own. So, because of a recent experiement - florineff isn't for me. So, now I'm back to my original line of thought if we possibly used transdermal aldesterone - would that help? I asked the doctor if he know anything about it because of our discussions. He said he knew nothing. But, he did say an endocronologist would address that. He said he wouldn't have a clue as to how to prescribe it. But, he is working with me to try to help the tachy. So far, the propranalol is doing pretty good - do have some side effects. Not bad enough to stop taking at this point. He is also calling me in another drug to try instead of the florniff. I'll pick it up this afternoon.

I have a neuro appt. coming up the end of Oct. and from what arizona girl says he is a researcher and will look for the issues. That's what I hoped to find with the cardio. Although - get this - he called yesterday to find out how I was doing on the meds. SHOCK!!!!!! I can't say I've ever had a doctor care enough to do that. So, I will be sticking with him and see if he can sort some of the heart issues out.

He also told me to be searching for a PCP and a pulmonologist - because I do have apenea. So, he's trying to guide me in the team that I'll need to collect. So that's a good thing.

As for renin - it is what is supposed to trigger the aldesterone response. But, it is the aldesterone that is the balancer between the salt and water balance.

Keep thinking about this people. Maybe we'll at least understand how it works and then maybe we can find some help with it.

[sue1234]

Issie--I think I started my paragraph out wrong when I said, "I must be missing something". That had nothing to do with the previous conversations that y'all have been having. It was in reference to the fact that a ton of us OI patients are put on beta blockers, or at least offered them, when it would be the wrong thing to do regarding our low blood volume.

NORMAL people would do okay on beta blockers because it would lower their blood pressure because they have a NORMAL or higher blood volume. They would do fine with the BB lowereing their renin, thus lowering their aldosterone.

US, on the other hand, need to have every bit of renin our body can muster to try and bring our aldosterone up, and therefore our blood volume.

Did that now make sense??

I think in people with POTS, it is probably now more crucial that they NEED to know our blood volume status. Then they can figure out why our volume is depleted.

It seems if they really want to help a POTS person, they would ignore the "reactionary" increased b/p and pulse, and JUST build blood volume. That, by itself, should lower the b/p and pulse. The reason we have the incr. pulse and b/p upon standing is the lowered blood volume.

No wonder I felt awful on the BB they have been trying to get me to take.

[issie]

Issie--I think I started my paragraph out wrong when I said, "I must be missing something". That had nothing to do with the previous conversations that y'all have been having. It was in reference to the fact that a ton of us OI patients are put on beta blockers, or at least offered them, when it would be the wrong thing to do regarding our low blood volume.

NORMAL people would do okay on beta blockers because it would lower their blood pressure because they have a NORMAL or higher blood volume. They would do fine with the BB lowereing their renin, thus lowering their aldosterone.

US, on the other hand, need to have every bit of renin our body can muster to try and bring our aldosterone up, and therefore our blood volume.

Did that now make sense??

I think in people with POTS, it is probably now more crucial that they NEED to know our blood volume status. Then they can figure out why our volume is depleted.

It seems if they really want to help a POTS person, they would ignore the "reactionary" increased b/p and pulse, and JUST build blood volume. That, by itself, should lower the b/p and pulse. The reason we have the incr. pulse and b/p upon standing is the lowered blood volume.

No wonder I felt awful on the BB they have been trying to get me to take.

You're so right. But to increase the volume of blood, they tell us to up our salt in order to hold onto fluid and that lowers the aldesterone - which is the hormone that is supposed to balance the two things in the first place.

I'm only taking 5 mg of the propronalol and only 2x a day. He had wanted me to take 10 mg. 3x a day. That was not do-able. I'm even thinking of dropping the dose a little more. It has caused my pulse rate to be lower and so therefore the high pulse rates don't go as high. My BP is a little on the high side when upright and now with that amount it is just slightly below what is considered normal. So, maybe it will help a little. I'm still not completely convinced yet. But, my heart and chest doesn't hurt as bad and I'm not getting the pounding feeling. But, I do feel more tired.

[McBlonde]

I don't know if this will help in ya'lls discussion on the aldosterone/renin axis, but it helped me understand.

I go to a neuro-endocrinologist and there is a very specific way to test aldosterone and renin. When my results came back, I had both low aldosterone and low renin, which Dr. F finds in about 1/3 of his patients. This describes me:

Soon-to-be-published research by Dr. Friedman shows a few patterns of abnormalities in the

renin-aldosterone axis. A little more than half the patients with fatigue had low blood levels of

both renin and aldosterone. This is called hyporeninemic hypoaldosteronism and is probably due

to dysfunction of what is called the autonomic nervous system, which sends messages from the

brain to the kidneys.

http://www.goodhormonehealth.com/youradrenal.pdf

I hope this paper might help someone.

[issie]

I don't know if this will help in ya'lls discussion on the aldosterone/renin axis, but it helped me understand.

I go to a neuro-endocrinologist and there is a very specific way to test aldosterone and renin. When my results came back, I had both low aldosterone and low renin, which Dr. F finds in about 1/3 of his patients. This describes me:

Soon-to-be-published research by Dr. Friedman shows a few patterns of abnormalities in the

renin-aldosterone axis. A little more than half the patients with fatigue had low blood levels of

both renin and aldosterone. This is called hyporeninemic hypoaldosteronism and is probably due

to dysfunction of what is called the autonomic nervous system, which sends messages from the

brain to the kidneys.

http://www.goodhormonehealth.com/youradrenal.pdf

I hope this paper might help someone.

I had read this article before. Thank you for posting it.

I've considered visiting this doctor. Has he helped you? Do you feel he really digs to figure it all out? He seems to know what he's talking about. Has he suggested a transdermal aldesterone or is he still using florineff and midodrine? Tell us your experience with him.

Issie

[McBlonde]

Issie,

I would say that he was like the Dr. House of neuro-endocrine issues. He trained at NIH and also has a Phd in pharmacy. It took me a while to figure out that MOST endocrinologists only know about diabetes and thyroid issues, nothing about the pituitary or the HPA axis or the autonomic system. He ran all the very specific neuro-endocrine hormone tests and discovered I had hypopituitarism, hypoaldosteronism, and hyporeninism. The neuro-endocrine hormones that I was abnomally low in were growth hormone, estrodiol, progesterone and central hypothyroidism, low aldosterone, and low renin. I had very low BP and a huge rise in HR after I stood up for 3 minutes. So I guess I know the reason for my orthostatic intolerance......the low aldosterone and low renin caused by a dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system.

It was 7 years ago that I saw him and after he did his testing and got the right horomones supplemented along with taking Florinef with salt, I was able to go from severe fatigue on bedrest to being a good bit better.....not able to go back to my previous work, but able to function.

My problems became severe again last August when I started having headaches and nausea. I couldn't think right. I would get lost trying to drive home from work. They thought I had a CSF leak because the symptoms are so similar. Before I had the myelogram, I saw Dr. F and he said he thought it was going to be from reduced blood flow to the head.

Turns out he was right. A local doctor here that used to research POTS, took my HR standing up and after 3 minutes it was 148. He said I had POTS, however, I think there is more to it. I have caught my BP dropping while I was sitting down, which probably explains the brain fog when driving, etc. So, something changed that caused me to have uncontrolled BP dropping. I guess something didn't change....I know about the low renin, low aldosterone. I guess it was my body's response got worse. I don't why that is yet.

He's not a POTS specialist, but if your root cause is pituitary or adrenal, he will be able to diagnosis that for sure. He is mainly a researcher and only sees patients one night a week in LA. After you see him he will do follow ups by email or phone if needed. Because he is mainly a researcher, he prefers to figure out what is wrong and then turn it over to your local doctor.

He does not take insurance. I believe his new patient charge is $425.00. Knowing if he is the right doctor for you really depends on if it's your neuro-hormones on the blink. For other causes of orthostatic intolerance, he would not be the right doc.

I hope this helps somewhat. I appologize in advance for any typos and sentences that sound stupid. but I am brain dead now, lol.

[sue1234]

A few years ago when I was being evaluated for Addison's and Cushing's, the Cushing's board talked about how he was one of the best endocrinologists. I can't fly, so going to him was out of the question, even though I would have if I could have.

McBlonde--with being hypopit. and low on all those hormones, your cortisol isn't low too?? Secondary Addison's??

[McBlonde]

A few years ago when I was being evaluated for Addison's and Cushing's, the Cushing's board talked about how he was one of the best endocrinologists. I can't fly, so going to him was out of the question, even though I would have if I could have.

McBlonde--with being hypopit. and low on all those hormones, your cortisol isn't low too?? Secondary Addison's??

No, it wasn't, but that IS what Dr. F thought would be eventually happening. Hypopituitary with secondary Addisions. However, even though my sleep cycles are reversed, my cortisol levels have remained normal these past 20 years. I also forgot to add that my DHEA-S were very low. DHEA is also made in the adrenal gland. I guess my messanger system is really messed up.

[issie]

A few years ago when I was being evaluated for Addison's and Cushing's, the Cushing's board talked about how he was one of the best endocrinologists. I can't fly, so going to him was out of the question, even though I would have if I could have.

McBlonde--with being hypopit. and low on all those hormones, your cortisol isn't low too?? Secondary Addison's??

No, it wasn't, but that IS what Dr. F thought would be eventually happening. Hypopituitary with secondary Addisions. However, even though my sleep cycles are reversed, my cortisol levels have remained normal these past 20 years. I also forgot to add that my DHEA-S were very low. DHEA is also made in the adrenal gland. I guess my messanger system is really messed up.

So, with all these issues - what do you do for them? Is florneff and salt your only solutions? Do you also use DHEA or pregnonolone? I asked my husband last week about going to him. He said we could. He works in LA some of the time, so it wouldn't be hard to get there. He must be taking insurance now, because he came up as a provider for my insurance. First, I think I'll continue with the neuro visit I have scheduled and if that doesn't give me the answers I need - then he will be next.

[McBlonde]

So, with all these issues - what do you do for them? Is florneff and salt your only solutions? Do you also use DHEA or pregnonolone? I asked my husband last week about going to him. He said we could. He works in LA some of the time, so it wouldn't be hard to get there. He must be taking insurance now, because he came up as a provider for my insurance. First, I think I'll continue with the neuro visit I have scheduled and if that doesn't give me the answers I need - then he will be next

Sorry, I left that part out!

For my pituitary failure: estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, and thyroid meds.

For my adrenal failure: DHEA and Florinef with Thermotabs.

Plus I took Klonopin and 25 mg of Trazadone for restorative sleep.

That regimen kept me upright from 2003 until August of 2009. For reasons unknown to me, last August I started having headaches and nausea that appeared to be orthostatic in nature. I don't know if my symptoms are from my HR rising (last time I was in the shower when I got out my HR was 168), but when I got downstairs and took my BP, it wouldn't register it had dropped so far. Chicken or the egg??

Either way, neither is "normal".

Hope this helps.

[McBlonde]

So, with all these issues - what do you do for them? Is florneff and salt your only solutions? Do you also use DHEA or pregnonolone? I asked my husband last week about going to him. He said we could. He works in LA some of the time, so it wouldn't be hard to get there. He must be taking insurance now, because he came up as a provider for my insurance. First, I think I'll continue with the neuro visit I have scheduled and if that doesn't give me the answers I need - then he will be next

Sorry, I left that part out!

For my pituitary failure: estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, and thyroid meds.

For my adrenal failure: DHEA and Florinef with Thermotabs.

Plus I took Klonopin and 25 mg of Trazadone for restorative sleep.

That regimen kept me upright from 2003 until August of 2009. For reasons unknown to me, last August I started having headaches and nausea that appeared to be orthostatic in nature. I don't know if my symptoms are from my HR rising (last time I was in the shower when I got out my HR was 168), but when I got downstairs and took my BP, it wouldn't register it had dropped so far. Chicken or the egg??

Either way, neither is "normal".

Hope this helps.

[issie]

Bump, more on aldosterone and renin.

[L4UR3N]

If vaccines caused my autonomic dysfunction, it must have happened when I was too young to remember it. I have wondered about getting the flu vaccine or traveling to other countries because of the following two abstracts. These are the two most relevant studies on how the immune system response plays with the CNS:

Does an acute inflammatory response temporarily attenuate parasympathetic reactivation?

Jae SY, Heffernan KS, Park SH, Jung SH, Yoon ES, Kim EJ, Ahn ES, Fernhall B.

Clin Auton Res. 2010 Aug;20(4):229-33. Epub 2010 May 1.

Department of Sports Informatics, The Health and Integrative Physiology Laboratory, University of Seoul, 90 Jeonnong-dong, Dongdaemun-gu, Seoul, 130-743, South Korea. syjae@uos.ac.kr

Abstract

PURPOSE: Although observational studies suggest that inflammatory markers are associated with autonomic nervous system function, the causal relationship of this is not clear. We tested the hypothesis that acute inflammation will temporarily attenuate vagal reactivation as measured by heart rate recovery after exercise.

METHODS: In this double-blind randomized study, 24 healthy subjects were assigned to receive either an influenza vaccine (n = 15) as a model to generate a systemic inflammatory response or a sham vaccine (n = 9). Heart rate recovery after exercise testing was used as an index of parasympathetic nervous function and was calculated as the difference between maximal heart rate during the test and heart rate 1 and 2 min after cessation of exercise. Both blood analysis and treadmill exercise stress tests were conducted before and 48 h after each vaccination.

RESULTS: Inflammatory marker, log C-reactive protein (1.9 +/- 1.2 to 2.8 +/- 1.4, p < 0.05) was significantly increased after the influenza vaccine. Heart rate recovery 1 was significantly attenuated 48 h after the influenza vaccination (23.4 +/- 6.4 to 20.5 +/- 4.9, p < 0.05) but not sham vaccination.

CONCLUSIONS: These findings show that acute inflammation is associated with a temporary deterioration in cardiac autonomic nervous system function in healthy subjects. *I wonder what it is doing to US? (since we wouldn't be considered "healthy subjects.)

PMID: 20437076

Postural tachycardia syndrome after vaccination with Gardasil.

Blitshteyn S.

P Eur J Neurol. 2010 Jul;17(7):e52. Epub 2010 Apr 9.

MID: 20402758

I know that you shared this a while ago, but this is a gem of an article. Thanks for sharing!!

[issie]

More info on aldosterone. Bump up.

[sue1234]

Reading Firewatcher's article on people receiving the flu vaccine, does anyone know what getting the vaccine does to a body in general? The reason I ask is because in the last few days I was thinking about the 72-hour fast I had two years ago in the hospital. I did not go below a glucose of 62, so I "passed". But, I was so hot the whole three days, they had to get a fan to blow on me(no fever). And, my heart rate went higher than it has ever been before, for me, to around 130 just going 3 steps to the toilet.

What dawned on me a few days ago, I had forgotten that they gave me a flu shot the first day as routine policy to all patients that had not received one. As a rule, I don't get them because, well, my body goes crazy with the simple things! I can't imagine what it would do with a vaccine! So, anyway, now I wonder if my fast was "compromised" or skewed by them giving me the vaccine and probably causing all my body systems to work overtime. I know cortisol and adrenaline both raise glucose, so I wonder if these got raised from the vaccine. Anybody know?