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issie

Blood Letting - Blood Draw

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Has anyone felt better after removal of blood? Like after a blood draw. I just read an article by Dr. Rowen who said that if your blood vicosity is too high this is a simple fix. The old fashioned "Blood Letting".

His thoughts are that if our blood gets too thick it erodes the lining of the artery and forces the heart to pump harder to move the too thick blood. He says that this thick blood will eventually cause artherosclerosis and damage the vessels at the branches of the veins where other branches meet into each other. These veins form calluses to handle the friction. As the red blood cells age, they become stiffer and this increases viscosity. These thickened cells can't easily pass through small capillaries and have to squeeze through. Your body makes new red blood cells and the old ones are eliminated by the spleen in about 120 days. He said that if you shed these older blood cells than the body will produce new ones faster and because there are more newer cells the blood viscosity is lowered.

I've also read about lowering the blood viscosity by using serrapeptaise and natto. Enzymes that eat up the bad and thin the blood. I know that Ginger and Fish Oil thin the blood too.

I'm not sure about a POTS person lowing the volume of their blood in order to lessen the thickness of their blood. We are trying to keep our volume up. But, I know there were some other threads about people who's viscosity - thickness of their blood - was too high. What did you guys do to lower the thickness of your blood. If your blood is too thick, not only does it damage your blood vessels, but you don't get the proper oxygen to your brain. In just thinking, if your veins aren't pulling the blood in the right direction any way and it pools in places - if it's thicker - it seems that would make POTS worse.

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I guess more people might have looked at this if I'd named it differently.

Doesn't anyone have a comment. There were some threads about blood viscosity about a year ago. I know you guys are still on the forum. What did you determine to thin out your blood? My husband suggested to take an aspirin - but since my veins are so fragile and I have EDS - I'm a little afraid that it might cause a hemorrhagic stroke. I do use Ginger and Fish Oils - I don't think these damage the blood vessels or thin them out.

But, I have noticed that for some odd reason, after a blood draw initially I feel weaker, but then start to feel better. (But that takes a few days.) Maybe when the blood gets thinner - it helps us not only to carry more oxygen but helps to stabilize the blood pooling better too. (?????????????)

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Sorry don't come here much and the new site seems confusing in the way it looks to my visually challenged eyes.

Most folks feel worse after blood draws and I am ONE of those. get flu like symptoms within 4-7 hrs, depending on how much blood was drawn. I need to really hydrate, too. If you have hypovolemia, low blood volume, one can be sensitive to having 3-9 vials of blood drawn.

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Issie

Iron exacerbates inflammation. I understand that blood-letting, in removing iron, has been found to reduce inflammation. This might also make people feel better.

Dianne

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"Meet Dr. Robert J. Rowen ? the groundbreaking M.D. who?s trained over 400 doctors? cured over 5,000 patients?and helped pass the nation?s first medical freedom law "

Hi

Is it this Dr Rowen? I have to admit after visiting his web site, I think he is a quack. The more DRs promise the less I believe. Shoot, I am a nurse midwife. I have cured over 5000 people (of chlamydia, trich, BV, and yeast). I have also trained more than 400 graduate nurses and residents. So has almost all working health care professionals. Just my humble opinion. Now, that does not mean he is never right but I run from miracle workers.

Louise

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While the logic of the theory may be sound, in actuality I would think the pain and discomfort suffered for hours and perhaps days thereafter due to low blood volume in someone that already suffers from blood pooling would far outweigh the potential benefits of smoother blood flow once volume returns to normal.

Since our problem is with gravity, lessening the volume of the very liquid we lack would be counterproductive and likely exacerbate symptoms, which is why Florinef, Cymbalta, or DDAVP, which boost blood volume, are prescribed to many of us.

Again, in the long run it might indeed be beneficial, but I don?t think for us.

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Issie-

There is a condition referred to as 'sticky blood' syndrome - Antiphospholipid Syndrome. Elevated APS occurs in Lupus (SLE) as well as on its own. Generally it is the rheumy who orders this test as part of a complete panel. APS is one of those hard dx as you generally have to have a major stroke to have definitive dx. My level is just at borderline - I can tell when the level will be high because the blood almost clots while being drawn.

I have EDS and I think the tendency to bleed is why my levels are not higher. The firstline drug of choice (without major thrombotic event) is plaquenil - that helps with lupus and APS. If hematologist thinks more should be done, coumadin is rx'd.

With a history of TIA you probably should be on a baby aspirin. I also am on 4000 units of fish oil.

All supplements are listed on my medication sheet. Too many variables make it much harder to sort things out.

noreen

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Simmy, you make perfect sense. The only thing I wonder about is possibly the blood viscosity (thickness of the blood). If you get rid of some of the bulk, maybe thinner more pliable cells would flow better and carry oxygen better. (I don't know much about this subject.) But, then again if we could just keep the blood from getting too thick in the first place all that would be better.

Dianne, yes you are right there is an illness called - hemocromatosis - too much iron in the blood and the rememdy is "Blood Letting". It runs in my family, my sis has a tendency toward this. They said my sis would for sure have to start the blood removal when her cycles stop. You're not supposed to use any iron supplements or cook in iron. It can damage the liver too. They keep checking me for this - but it's not showing up. I have a friend that has it and before he found out what was wrong - he was one more sick puppy. Now that he is having regular blood draws - he is a different person. He started out having to do it every week. Now he only has to do it once a month.

Reen, I didn't know about this condition. May be something to look into. So, with fragile veins - you can touch me and they will break - aspirin would be okay?

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Reen, I didn't know about this condition. May be something to look into. So, with fragile veins - you can touch me and they will break - aspirin would be okay? I don't want any more TIA's - this last one really affected my brain. I can't do math any more and I used to be a book keeper (one of my many jobs.) It's very frustrating.

I hear ya, Issie. I think they missed at least one TIA on me - magna cum laude MBA in acctng - and I can't trust myself to write a check.

Here is a link to basic info on APS also known as Hughes Syndrome or sticky blood syndrome.

Obviously I am not a doctor Issie and you should clear it with your doc but generally a baby aspirin (81 mg) is considered good when there is a stroke risk or hx. The idea is to thin the blood a little so clots do not form - clots cause strokes. The collagen disorder results in your vein breaking when external pressure is applied.

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Hemocromatosis runs in my family also.

Issie - Have you been diagnosed with vascular EDS?

This reminded me of an article I read about hyper POTs. It said that we have pooling, not in our veins, but that plasma leaks out into the interstitial tissue around our veins. I didn't bookmark it, and can't remember where I found it, darn brain fog. I think it may have been a Vanderbilt paper. Anyway, I had wondered about this in regards to taking fish oil. I always feel terrible after taking fish oil and I have a lot of bloating. Do you think that thinning the blood could cause more plasma to leak out of our veins?

As far as taking blood. unless its a lot of blood I don't really feel that bad. I might be a little more light headed, but it doesn't make me feel that bad. I haven't noticed feeling better either. 3 weeks ago I had about 6 or 7 vials taken and I was very tired for about 2 weeks.

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Thanks for the info Reen. I've had a doc tell me to take a baby aspirin but that was before my POTS and EDS diagnosis. I guess maybe I should at least try it and see, if I feel better by thinning my blood that way.

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Hemocromatosis runs in my family also.

Issie - Have you been diagnosed with vascular EDS?

This reminded me of an article I read about hyper POTs. It said that we have pooling, not in our veins, but that plasma leaks out into the interstitial tissue around our veins. I didn't bookmark it, and can't remember where I found it, darn brain fog. I think it may have been a Vanderbilt paper. Anyway, I had wondered about this in regards to taking fish oil. I always feel terrible after taking fish oil and I have a lot of bloating. Do you think that thinning the blood could cause more plasma to leak out of our veins?

I need follow up diagnostics, we didn't do gentics because at the time they thought that it was hyperflex EDS. I really didn't know enough about it to connect my vein issues to the EDS when it got diagnosised. Or, I would have gone further with the testing. So, I'm thinking there is a connection there.

I wish you could find that article on hyper POTS. That's interesting - maybe that's why I feel like a water ballon ready to burst all the time. I swell soooo bad. I can't wear any rings and most of my shoes won't work. My ab looks like I'm 8 months prego. I do think, however, that some of it is water gain - because, I can lose 10 lbs. in one day. I don't know if plasma, which is a part of blood can leak out. It could be another research topic. I wouldn't think that blood would leak out - you'd have bad bruising. (I really don't know much about this. Trying to learn.)

As for the fish oil - I don't know. It could be you are reacting to something in the cap. Some sort of filler. Or maybe it's the kind of fish used. At one point, I quit the fish oils too, but went back on them because I'm sure I have an esstential fatty acid deficiet. If I don't use it my hands and feet turn to sand paper and my skin gets horrible.

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Okay, I found the article. Here is the excerpt I was talking about:

In normal subjects, about 14% of the plasma volume may leave the blood within 30 minutes of standing. This loss of plasma volume into interstitial tissues is greatly enhanced in patients with OI; occasional patients will lose more than twice this amount of fluid. It is little wonder such patients with supine hypovolemia to begin with develop symptoms in a setting of this excessive dynamic orthostatic hypovolemia. Normal subjects reduce urinary sodium excretion on assumption of upright posture, but patients with OI do so ineffectively. This probably contributes to the severity of their hypovolemia. In patients with florid symptoms of orthostatic intolerance in a setting of hypovolemia and increased plasma norepinephrine, several interesting findings emerge. The plasma renin activity and aldosterone are generally slightly reduced in proportion to the degree of the hypovolemia. This suggests that the reduced renin level may be responsible for the hypovolemia. It is possible that impaired sympathetic innervation of the juxtoglomerular apparatus in the kidney may underlie this renin deficit.

Hmm, I didn't even notice the bit about us not reducing urinary sodium. Makes me wonder if I should be reducing my sodium intake. Oh, here is the link to the article http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/root/vumc.php?site=adc&doc=4788 It was a Vanderbilt article. I wish that I had gone to Vanderbilt for some testing. Oh well, you know I was wondering if taking baking soda would help. I have read that it can help with hypovolemia. Maybe just a pinch in water.

I would try to get the genetic testing for the vascular EDS. I would think that if you had TIAs it would be to your benefit to take a baby aspirin. Talk to your Dr just to be sure. Who knows, maybe you'll feel better. I am taking flax seed oil. It doesn't seem to bother me as much as the fish oil. I'm not sure if it has the same blood thinning properties. I started taking coconut oil and it has helped with my extreme dry skin. I also use it directly on my skin, which helps.

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Okay, I found the article. Here is the excerpt I was talking about:

In normal subjects, about 14% of the plasma volume may leave the blood within 30 minutes of standing. This loss of plasma volume into interstitial tissues is greatly enhanced in patients with OI; occasional patients will lose more than twice this amount of fluid. It is little wonder such patients with supine hypovolemia to begin with develop symptoms in a setting of this excessive dynamic orthostatic hypovolemia. Normal subjects reduce urinary sodium excretion on assumption of upright posture, but patients with OI do so ineffectively. This probably contributes to the severity of their hypovolemia. In patients with florid symptoms of orthostatic intolerance in a setting of hypovolemia and increased plasma norepinephrine, several interesting findings emerge. The plasma renin activity and aldosterone are generally slightly reduced in proportion to the degree of the hypovolemia. This suggests that the reduced renin level may be responsible for the hypovolemia. It is possible that impaired sympathetic innervation of the juxtoglomerular apparatus in the kidney may underlie this renin deficit.

Hmm, I didn't even notice the bit about us not reducing urinary sodium. Makes me wonder if I should be reducing my sodium intake. Oh, here is the link to the article http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/root/vumc.php?site=adc&doc=4788 It was a Vanderbilt article. I wish that I had gone to Vanderbilt for some testing. Oh well, you know I was wondering if taking baking soda would help. I have read that it can help with hypovolemia. Maybe just a pinch in water.

I would try to get the genetic testing for the vascular EDS. I would think that if you had TIAs it would be to your benefit to take a baby aspirin. Talk to your Dr just to be sure. Who knows, maybe you'll feel better. I am taking flax seed oil. It doesn't seem to bother me as much as the fish oil. I'm not sure if it has the same blood thinning properties. I started taking coconut oil and it has helped with my extreme dry skin. I also use it directly on my skin, which helps.

How interesting. I bet I have read this, just spaced it. Have you read my two threads on "Out of the Box thinking and More on Aldosterone and Renin"? I just recently did alot of research and posted it here. You might find it interesting. Yeah, your question about lowering sodium is discussed in my research articles here.

I've read about coconut oil being so good for you. I think I will try that one. I can't take flax - allergic.

Thanks for the info. Let me know on my post what you think after you read them.

Issie

P.S. This could explain why my sodium levels are always too high - even without extra salt.

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How interesting. I bet I have read this, just spaced it. Have you read my two threads on "Out of the Box thinking and More on Aldosterone and Renin"? I just recently did alot of research and posted it here. You might find it interesting. Yeah, your question about lowering sodium is discussed in my research articles here.

I've read about coconut oil being so good for you. I think I will try that one. I can't take flax - allergic.

Thanks for the info. Let me know on my post what you think after you read them.

Issie

P.S. This could explain why my sodium levels are always too high - even without extra salt.

I'll do a search and read up on your posts.

I started taking the coconut oil to combat my chronic UTI infections b/c of it's lauric acid. I haven't had an infetion in a few months, so I'm going to continue with it and hope for the best. I use the organic and I usually cook with it instead of taking it as a supplement. Though I did find melting it with chocolate to be a good substitute for a mounds bar. :)

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I started taking the coconut oil to combat my chronic UTI infections b/c of it's lauric acid. I haven't had an infetion in a few months, so I'm going to continue with it and hope for the best. I use the organic and I usually cook with it instead of taking it as a supplement. Though I did find melting it with chocolate to be a good substitute for a mounds bar. :)

YUM!!!! Add in some organic coconut too and maybe a few nuts and you've got a winner. Do you use dark choc. and melt it on the stove or in the microwave?

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Issie- I read one of your posts about aldosterone and renin. I noticed that you have had a lot of surgeries. You probably don't have vascular EDS. Surgeries for that type of EDS is almost impossible b/c the veins tend to shred.

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Issie- I read one of your posts about aldosterone and renin. I noticed that you have had a lot of surgeries. You probably don't have vascular EDS. Surgeries for that type of EDS is almost impossible b/c the veins tend to shred.

Most of my surgeries were abdominal (8 of them with massive repairs, ending with a complete hysterectomy at age 36). And at age 26, I had branches of varicose veins taken out. Not vein stripping. I'm sure that the veins have reformed and sealed off and rerouted. But - I DEFINITLY have vein issues. It has to be EDS related. I didn't know until last year that I had EDS. Although it should have been figured out YEARS ago - all the symptoms were there. My last surgery was for breaking my foot off my leg - reattachment (still had skin attached). Hoping for no more surgeries. This bodies been through it!!!!!!!

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:) It probably is EDS related. The vascular type is way dangerous. Most people with it die very young. So it's a good thing that you have had so many surgeries. It probably means you don't have the vascular type. I have major surgeries also, so I feel pretty certain that I don't have that type either. I haven't been diagnosed, but I'm pretty sure that I have either hypermobility or the hypermobile EDS. My hips and ribs are the worst for me. My hips sublux and I have to pop them back into socket. It can be very painful. One of my ribs also feels like it does the same thing and I can crack my chest, which feels strange.

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:) It probably is EDS related. The vascular type is way dangerous. Most people with it die very young. So it's a good thing that you have had so many surgeries. It probably means you don't have the vascular type. I have major surgeries also, so I feel pretty certain that I don't have that type either. I haven't been diagnosed, but I'm pretty sure that I have either hypermobility or the hypermobile EDS. My hips and ribs are the worst for me. My hips sublux and I have to pop them back into socket. It can be very painful. One of my ribs also feels like it does the same thing and I can crack my chest, which feels strange.

Good conclusion about it not being the vascular type of EDS. I had not thought about it that way as to the success of the surgeries without my dying. Although, they nearly did lose me a couple of times - once on the table - my BP dropped out from under me. I guess it was real scarry for them. At the time, I didn't know I had POTS. Why couldn't they have figured it out sooner. Seems like that would have been a clue. Been close to death twice. Not so scarry, once you've looked it in the face.

It sounds like that could be one of your issues. They diagnosis the hypermobile type on symptoms alone. There is no genetic testing for that. Easy to get that one figured out if you have a doctor who knows what to look for.

Thanks for your input here. Now, I don't have to worry about the vascular type of EDS.

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At this point it is just rumor, but I have heard that the FDA is considering yanking approval for blood-letting unless the technique can be put through the final round of studies documenting its clinical benefit. Not sure how it works when a key party of interest is foreign based (Transylvanian), but if they cannot lobby this issue perhaps the Chupacabra can speak up more locally... I'm betting we won't here much in the way of vocal support from leeches. Anyway, the rumor is that a public protest is planned for October 31st... so if you are so inclined, dress appropriately to protest this decision! :)

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Hey, don't give the folks at the FDA any ideas! They might be trolling the site after all of the emails they've been getting, lol.

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This is an old thread, but I'm giving an update. I still have HYPERPOTS. Also was Dx with low renin and aldosterone. 

Have been Dx with APS with Lupus Anticoagulant - this means too thick blood. It may explain why I figured out that I do better to vasodilation rather than vasoconstrict. This has to be very slightly or I have more issues. But the meds that caused constriction made me way worse. 

I wasn't able to take the aspirin. I have MCAS and it causes me to have to much issues with degranulatuon.  Right now I'm using herbals to somewhat thin my blood. And some of them are mild calcium channel blockers (as are some of the meds I use for MCAS (GastroCrom) and POTS (1/2 Tramadol). Calcium channel blockers dilate the veins. 

This is an unusual finding for a POTS person.  Except it is also found in Sjogrens - and that's being found more and more in POTS.  I have recently had a probable DX for this. My mom had it and it can be genetic. I say probable because I don't want to have a lip biopsy for a firm DX.  I have a lot of symptoms. But it may be due to another issue......

Also another biggie is I have CIRS.  Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome.   This causes a lot of inflammation and can also cause too thick blood. Osmolarity (too high salt) and ADH are issues that go along with CIRS.  I've always known I didn't need to use more salt. The low renin and aldosterone and higher blood pressures told me this. But having these issues makes it hard to hold onto water and this too can cause too thick blood. 

So again, I question, could POTS be an issue with too thick blood and inability for it to move to crucial areas like heart and brain. It could also cause blood pooling and low volume. It may not fit all POTS subset types.....but it seems to fit me. 

Brain fog also explained by CIRS.  The inflammation in the brain has caused swelling and compression. Neuro Quant MRI testing explains this one. 

Issie

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